Karate for Children

[ukshorinryu]

Im off the same opinion here, 12 is the youngest that i will train when I begin my cadet class for 12-16 year olds. 16 + and you join the adult class.

I see very, very little benefit for children in karate and always recomend judo as a starting art for anyone under 12.

and parents...................lets not go there eh!

[Aefibird]

ukshorinryu said:

and parents...................lets not go there eh!

Tell me about it!! I've had a 'delightful' afternoon in a meeting with parents of SEN children. It's lucky I've got karate tonight 'cos I'm now very very wound up and in need of something or someone to whack. Hard.

UKShorinRyu, why do you recommend Judo for younger children? If they're able to do a martial art (Judo) then why not have them in your class? Surely if it is not suitable for children to do Shorin Ryu then it's not suitable for them to do any martial art?

[ukshorinryu]

Personally i think Judo is an excellent grounding for children, it teaches them balance and works them physically hard, the falling is also a good training tool.

karate whilst it contains all these things is essentially stand up striking at the introduction/middle phase and i dont think kids are responsabile enough not to misuse the art in the payground.

Its also fair to say that judo is better organised nationally to teach kids with a better level of instruction, just my opinion, it is also a martial sport not a martial art - in my eyes a BIG difference.

finally...............i have issues around teaching karate 'classically' as my research shows it should be taught, and this involves contact and hojo undo most definatly not suitiable for children, an idea is eye strikes, ear grabs, instep stomps, chokes, breaks etc etc, im sure you see where im coming from.

[Aefibird]

Right, good explanation. Yes, I see your reasoning behind it.

[Andy]

Could have put this on another thread, but thought it might be of value here.

My little girl turns 5 this month, and starts school in August.
She has an excess of energy, getting up early, running us ragged, and not going to sleep until she absolutely has to.
I think she's left handed like her mother, and thats where she gets her long legs from, but she's very solid boned and broad across the shoulders like myself.

Obviously she has the possibility of MA training, but my options are influenced by factors relevant to this thread.
I've seen kids as young as four or five take up MA and do really well, but it does seem to depend on the child to some extent, but largely on the instructional environment.
Kids need to have fun.

Judo appeals, as the club I trained at when I was 7 still exists, as it has done since 1948, with the bonus that it's a Non-Striking art, and it's permanently matted.
The Instructors run specific kids classes, at times that suit parents, with people who are used to, and enjoy teaching children.
From my memory, it was mostly breakfalls, tumbling, team games and basic reaps, throws and groundwork.

The most prominent MA in the area is Shuko Kai Karate, and like I've mentioned on here before, the Sakai Dojo has consistently produced National, International and World Champions, primarily in Kumite, with it's originator at one time being the UK coach.
Those in the know, will recognise names like Pat McKay and Elliot Bunney.
There are a few things I'm not keen on though;

On a Saturday, you often see kids marching through the streets to these immensely popular kids classes, wearing their GI and belts for all to see, which kind of sticks in my craw on a basic humility level (yeah, I know kids don't bother with this, but what's going on in the mind of the organisation?)
The fighters I've met from Sakai have been, to a man incredibly blinkered and close minded, with no art/system/style worth pursuing except Shuko Kai.
I'm still trying to interview the head of the organisation, and these are issues I wish to broach.

TKD.
TKD has always impressed me, as it's structure, for whatever reason, seems to attract kids, and they love doing it.
I've got zero interest in how easily my daughter could acheive her second dan Black Belt in two years in TKD, but kids seem to love it.

Kung Fu.
I quit teaching back in 98, but two of my students keep a couple of my old clubs going.
I got a lot from the style, and what I did, but I don't feel either of them are geared up for kids, and they certainly don't have specific classes.

It's all a bit 'moot' anyway, as she might want to do ballet, gymnastics or tap dance for all I know, and whatever she wants, I'm behind her all the way.

I'm mostly with ukshorinryu so far.
There are obvious benefits in Judo, like the breakfalls, the balance and coordination etc
I've not got a bad word to say about Judo, and I've yet to meet anyone who has.

When I was a kid, they only took students from 7 and over.
I'll see if they make exceptions, or probably wait until then.
In the mean time, I'll put up with 'Hurting Daddy Time' ;D

[ukshorinryu]

Nicely put Andy,

Dont get me wrong my point isnt purley regarding safety/tradiion and poking eyes out not being suitiable..........

i also think that to expierience grappling at an early age gives a tremendous benefit when looking at other arts in the future, perhaps karate. It also significantly develops our tendons and core 'strength' along with a million other things.......im sur eyou know all this stuff.

the word Tegumi is often chucked around these days (in the karate world),
my understanding is that it is simply village wrestling and judo would really be a very close modern interpretation- but with the structure suitiable for children, Okinawan children used to practise wrestling each other alot and I view the skills developed from stand up grappling, to groundwork as an important base for furteher development with a striking art later on in life.

[Andy]

ukshorinryu said:

Nicely put Andy,

Dont get me wrong my point isnt purley regarding safety/tradiion and poking eyes out not being suitiable..........

I understand that.
Modern Sports/MA coaching have evolved significantly in the last twenty years.

i also think that to expierience grappling at an early age gives a tremendous benefit when looking at other arts in the future, perhaps karate.

I don't know that kids get THAT much depth out of it, but it certainly isn't detrimental to anything.

It also significantly develops our tendons and core 'strength' along with a million other things.......im sur eyou know all this stuff.

You'd have to be doing an awful lot of it to affect tendon development and core strength, while kids have a myriad of other means to acheive this in their day to day lives.
Running, Swimming, playing games, climbing trees etc.

the word Tegumi is often chucked around these days (in the karate world),
my understanding is that it is simply village wrestling and judo would really be a very close modern interpretation- but with the structure suitiable for children, Okinawan children used to practise wrestling each other alot and I view the skills developed from stand up grappling, to groundwork as an important base for furteher development with a striking art later on in life.

First time I came across 'Tegumi' was from a lady Shotokan practitioner, then later from a well known Karateka in Leeds.
The lady's boyfriend was training escrima at the time, and the Hubud drills they trained were very similar to Tegumi (at least at the level both displayed).
Neither went further than upright games of 'tag', but I appreciate your more in depth description.

[ukshorinryu]

Hi Andy,

thanks for your comments.

regarding using judo as a base I really rate it for youngsters, the skills developed IMO are very important to build on in future years, just where im at. Its about balance, range and learning about the bodys strengths and weakness - something for example many karate dojos do not cover, ever.....


I agree that swimming, climbing etc etc are all good things, I was thinking more from the relativly inactive kids perspective and also on the specific skills trianing concept, ie doing judo makes you good at judo, but you of course make a valid point.


Tegumi means different things to different people, many interpret it as 'flow drills' with constant contact. I dont see it as this, I think of it and have had it explained and shown to me as 'freeplay' stand up wrestling, constant contact using our weight, centre line theory, push/pull, drop/raise principles etc etc - distinctly different from some of the in flavour flow drills (which are excellent but different IMO).

It then develops to include gripping of muscle, PPs, locks, trips, submissions and traps etc etc. but it does not contain striking per say - until its combined with tode, then we have old style karate, covering all ranges but with limited groundwork.

[Andy]

ukshorinryu said:

Hi Andy,

thanks for your comments.

regarding using judo as a base I really rate it for youngsters, the skills developed IMO are very important to build on in future years, just where im at. Its about balance, range and learning about the bodys strengths and weakness - something for example many karate dojos do not cover, ever.....

I'd disagree somewhat.
There are lessons to be learned from both Karate and Judo, Striking & Grappling systems.
In some ways they are the same lessons, in others they are different.

I agree that swimming, climbing etc etc are all good things, I was thinking more from the relativly inactive kids perspective and also on the specific skills trianing concept, ie doing judo makes you good at judo, but you of course make a valid point.

Anything is better than sitting on your arse playing computer games eh?

Tegumi means different things to different people, many interpret it as 'flow drills' with constant contact. I dont see it as this, I think of it and have had it explained and shown to me as 'freeplay' stand up wrestling, constant contact using our weight, centre line theory, push/pull, drop/raise principles etc etc - distinctly different from some of the in flavour flow drills (which are excellent but different IMO).

Like all things.
I suggest a specific 'Tegumi' thread.

It then develops to include gripping of muscle, PPs, locks, trips, submissions and traps etc etc. but it does not contain striking per say - until its combined with tode, then we have old style karate, covering all ranges but with limited groundwork.

Not how I'd define 'Tegumi', but like I said, it merits a thread all on it's own.

[Aefibird]

Specific Tegumi thread started in "Karate" section.