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Post by RDKI on Nov 20, 2004 21:47:51 GMT
The Kara character was officially adopted by Okinawan Karate Masters after a meeting held in 1936. Have a look at Patrick McCarthy's Ancient Okinawan Martial Arts which includes a transcript of the meetings minutes
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Post by AngelaG on Nov 20, 2004 21:52:46 GMT
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Post by RDKI on Nov 21, 2004 15:02:22 GMT
OH you meant the SONG pre dated 1936??? I missed something somehwere, sorry  |
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thingy
KR Green Belt
Posts: 150
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Post by thingy on Nov 24, 2004 12:58:22 GMT
Turns out that the Korean martial art Tang Soo Do literally translates as "China Knife Hand" but is commonly translated as "Way of the China Hand". Apparently it contains shotokan kata too.
Carol Decker was more knowledgeable about this than I think any of us realised.
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Post by AngelaG on Dec 8, 2004 12:06:33 GMT
Turns out that the Korean martial art Tang Soo Do literally translates as "China Knife Hand" but is commonly translated as "Way of the China Hand". Apparently it contains shotokan kata too. They are all the same thing from a different angle. It reminds me of an analogy I was given at school to describe religion (!). But I think it can be applied to Martial Arts too. Imagine 3 different people, blindfolded and led up to an elephant. The first one gets led to the head end and feels the trunk, he thinks he is feeling a snake. The second one is led to the legs and thinks he is feeling a tree. The third one is led to the back and and feels the tail and thinks it is a worm. All three men are touching the same elephant but without the overall picture they all have their own take on it. If they work together they may be able to work out it's an elephant but until then they have to form their own opinions. Anyway, you can stretch the analogy so far before it breaks, but you get my gist  |
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thingy
KR Green Belt
Posts: 150
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Post by thingy on Dec 8, 2004 12:49:42 GMT
I like posts about elephants, but i'm not totally with you.
Is the elephant the words "Tang Soo-Do" (I cut and paste the text about the translations from somewhere else), or is the elephant a big karate elephant?
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Post by AngelaG on Dec 8, 2004 13:22:08 GMT
I like posts about elephants, but i'm not totally with you. Is the elephant the words "Tang Soo-Do" (I cut and paste the text about the translations from somewhere else), or is the elephant a big karate elephant? The elephant is the Martial art. Whether it is karate, Tang-soo-do, TKD, etc. It all boils down to every martial art being the same thing, but approached from a different angle. Therefore to get the most out of our MA maybe it is best if we work WITH other martial artists instead of worrying about what the differences are and getting all defensive about how our art is the best. If you study TKD forms they bear a remarkable resemblance to shotokan kata, bear a remarksble resemblance to Tang-soo-do, bear a remarkable resemblance to Bagua etc. etc. The majority of people have two arms and two legs, there are a limited number of ways how we can use these to effectively defend ourselves (injure/maim/kill other people). Is it any surprise that the forms and the basics in one martial art look the same as the forms and basics in another martial art? Perhaps the way forward is to be honest with ourselves and spot the strengths and weaknesses of our own particular style so that we can build on what we have and make ourselves more rounded MA practioners? BTW living close to Paignton Zoo, I can tell you that elephants are crap at karate - not a single black belt amongst them! |
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thingy
KR Green Belt
Posts: 150
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Post by thingy on Dec 8, 2004 15:47:54 GMT
Aha ok. I'm with you.
From reading around, it seems that Tang Soo-Do practitioners practice karate forms anyhow. I don't personally know that to be true, just what I read.
TKD originally practiced shotokan kata until over a number of years they were written out of the syllabus and new kata written, to help TKD forge its much wanted sense of individuality. Take a gander at the rewritten TKD kata though and you can certainly see more than a nod and a wink in the direction of karate.
I know the above bit of writing sounds like I'm missing your point, but I'm not - I do get it and do agree entirely.
The differences are good. You shouldn't worry about them, a healthy interest is a good thing. The different style will have the same techniques but on occasions performed through different emphasis on power generation/speed/whatever and it's good to observe these i reckon.
Elephants train in ninjitsu, at night - fact.
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Post by Sasori Te on Dec 11, 2004 1:36:33 GMT
Actually, karate was known only as te from about 1629 until 1936. There was a meeting of notable Okinawan masters in Japan on Oct. 26 1936. This group decided to change the meaning of karate from China Hand to Empty hand. The do "way" was also added in Japan as the Okinawan martial arts had nothing to do with religion or spirituality. So that is how tode or te jutsu turned into karate-do. Are you guys bored yet?  |
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Post by Aefibird on Dec 11, 2004 21:28:22 GMT
Are you guys bored yet? Yes, because you didn't mention elephants even ONCE in your last post. Shame on you! ;D |
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Post by AngelaG on Dec 12, 2004 8:57:26 GMT
Yes, because you didn't mention elephants even ONCE in your last post. Shame on you! ;D Yeah... I feel a ban coming on ;D |
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thingy
KR Green Belt
Posts: 150
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Post by thingy on Dec 14, 2004 11:45:08 GMT
Actually, karate was known only as te from about 1629 until 1936. There was a meeting of notable Okinawan masters in Japan on Oct. 26 1936. This group decided to change the meaning of karate from China Hand to Empty hand. The do "way" was also added in Japan as the Okinawan martial arts had nothing to do with religion or spirituality. So that is how tode or te jutsu turned into karate-do. Are you guys bored yet? I'm not - I keep finding this subject far more interesting than i ought, I don't really know why. In the space of 1936 (was it all at the same meeting?) they both added a new word "kara", and decided they didn't like the meaning. It seems very odd to add a word that you don't like, so you decide that that word means something else. |
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Post by AngelaG on Jan 4, 2005 8:11:10 GMT
I'm not - I keep finding this subject far more interesting than i ought, I don't really know why. In the space of 1936 (was it all at the same meeting?) they both added a new word "kara", and decided they didn't like the meaning. It seems very odd to add a word that you don't like, so you decide that that word means something else. This is quite true. Even after reading up on the subject in Karate-do: My Way of Life, I too am still a bit confused. At what point did te become kara-te, with the meaning of China Hand? |
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Post by Sionnagh on Jan 4, 2005 8:47:01 GMT
To the best of my knowledge, and expanding a little on what has already been posted... The Okinawan art was generally known simply as "Te" or alternatively "Tote/Tode/Toudi". "Tou/to" meant Tang or China thus the art could have been called "China hand". Given the anti-Chinese sentiment of the time and the fact that the name of the art was rarely written it was decided to use the alternate pronunciation for this kanji of "kara" and substitute in the kanji "KU/kara" so that the written meaning became karate - empty hand or void hand. Mick |
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