Objectively assessing competitions.

[pasmith]

Competition scores…

Seeing as Andy and I are debating the relative merits of semi-contact competitions (on another thread) I thought I’d have a go at *objectively* assessing how near to reality any given martial arts competition comes.

Something like this can be used to define “Reality” I think.

You can hit anywhere, hit with anything, no holds are barred, weapons are included, contact is full, dirty tactics, multiple attackers, no protection, no attacks are pre-arranged and the fight itself is not agreed upon before it starts.

A real fight scores a neutral “0” on the “Fightometer ™”. Every type of competition will have minus points deducted from zero, based on what you can or cannot do under that format. Nothing can score higher than 0 as 0 represents a real fight.
This is a work in progress so bear with me and please offer any constructive opinions you can come up with.

Minus 1 point for every target you can’t strike...

Joints
Head
Legs
Eyes
Groin
Throat
Spine
Body

Minus 1 point for every body-weapon you can’t hit with...

Hands
Feet
Shins
Knees
Elbows
Head
Shoulders
Fingers

Minus 5 points for each element of fighting not allowed...

Stand up striking
Clinching
Clinch/attached striking
Throws/takedowns
Ground grappling
Ground striking
Standing submissions
Ground submissions

Minus 1 point for every weapon not allowed...

Fake Knife/Blade
Real Knife/Blade
Stick
Real Gun

Minus the stated points for anything less than “full contact”...

Semi contact -5
No contact -10
No attackers at all -20

Minus 1 point for every restricted tactic listed...

No biting
No eye gouging
No fish-hooking

Minus 1 point for every item of protection worn...

Gum-shield
Head-guard
Small gloves
Big Gloves (-2 for these)
Groin guard
Shin guards
Kick boots
Elbow pads
Body protector

Minus 5 points if you only fight one person at a time.

Minus 5 points in no one has ever died doing this form of competition.

Minus 15 points if the attacks are pre-arranged

Minus 5 points if the fight is organised before the minute that it starts.

Using this (as a start) professional MMA scores like this…

Minus 4 for not targeting the Eyes, Groin, Throat or Spine.
Minus 2 for not being able to head-butt or finger strike.
Minus 4 for not allowing a Fake Knife/Blade, Real Knife/Blade, Stick or a Real Gun.
Minus 3 points for no biting, no eye gouging and no fish-hooking.
Minus 3 for wearing a gum-shield, groin guard and small gloves.
Minus 5 for only fighting one person
Minus 5 points for the fight being organised

MMA scores -26 and is therefore 26 points removed from reality.

ITF TKD scores like this…

Minus 6 for not hitting these targets…Joints, Legs, Eyes, Groin, Throat, Spine.
Minus 6 for not hitting with…Shins, Knees, Elbows, Head, Shoulders, fingers.
Minus 35 for not allowing…Clinching, Clinch/attached striking, Throws/takedowns, Ground grappling, Ground striking, Standing submissions, Ground submissions.
Minus 4 for not allowing a Fake Knife/Blade, Real Knife/Blade, Stick or a Real Gun.
Minus 5 for being semi-contact.
Minus 3 points for no biting, no eye gouging and no fish-hooking.
Minus 5 for wearing a Head-guard, groin guard, small gloves, shin guards, Kick boots.
Minus 5 points in no one has ever died doing this form of competition.
Minus 5 for only fighting one person
Minus 5 points for the fight being organised

ITF TKD scores -79 and is therefore 79 points removed from reality.
More removed from reality than MMA we might surmise from that?

Anyone else care to tot-up the scores for Karate Kumite, semi-contact or knockdown perhaps?

[Aefibird]

Although the purpose of competition is missing from your list and that comparing competitions with reality is often missing the point of competing in the first place I still like that scoring system and think it is a neat idea, especially if not taken too seriously.

As far as I know I'm the only WTF TKDer on here, so I'll *try* to tot up the scores for that form of competition and will have a go at (points) karate kumite as well.

WTF (Olympic) TKD scores as follows:

Minus 5 for no attacks to joints, legs, eyes, groin or throat
Minus 6 for not hitting with shins, knees, elbows, head, shoulders or fingers
Minus 35 for no clinching, clinch striking, takedowns, ground grappling or striking, standing or ground submissions
Minus 4 for no fake knife/blade, real knife/blade, stick or real gun
Minus 3 for no biting, eye gouging or fish hooking
Minus 6 for wearing a gum shield, head guard, groin guard, shin guards, forearm guards and body protector
Minus 5 for only facing one person at a time
Minus 5 for the fight/competition being pre-arranged

giving a total of -69. WTF scores closer to reality than ITF because it is full-contact.

WKF Karate Kumite (points sparring):

Minus 6 for no attacks to joints, eyes, throat, groin, spine or legs
Minus 6 for no striking with shins, knees, elbows, head, shoulders, fingers
Minus 30 for no clinching, clinch strikes, ground grappling or striking, standing sub or ground sub
Minus 4 for no fake knife/blade, real knife/blade, stick or gun
Minus 3 for no eye gouging, biting or fish hooking
Minus 5 for semi-contact
Minus 5 for wearing gum shield, groin guard, small gloves, shin guards and foot protectors (kick boots)
Minus 5 for only one opponent at once
Minus 5 for no-one died during this form of competition
Minus 5 for being pre-organised

giving a total of -74.

[thingy]

Think the "targets allowed" needs a slight alteration to the scheme.
I can't work out how, mind you.

But for instance, "head" being a target. I'm not having a dig at WTF TKD or anything...but they can kick to the head so head becomes a legit target and no loss of points. But they aren't allowed to punch to the head. Therefore they deserve minus points here (as i said, not an attack on the style just an attempt at constructive critisism with this style of assessment).

[AngelaG]

I think the whole system is flawed in comparing it to a real fight. There are different levels of fights, and how one would deal with them would alter depending on the situation.

[Andy]

angelag said:

I think the whole system is flawed in comparing it to a real fight. There are different levels of fights, and how one would deal with them would alter depending on the situation.

I agree.
It doesn't matter how many times you see this attempted, there is never a satisfactory conclusion to be drawn.
Too many intangibles.
Life can't be put into neat little boxes like this, much as we all wish it could.

There are benefits to be drawn from ALL forms of MA and ALL forms of competition, but these are not easily quantified, the major variable being the INDIVIDUAL (see Robin for details).

[pasmith]

Heh...I knew this'd cause some sort of reaction.
Just a bit of fun as they say.

Thingy is right that choice of targets needs to be cross-referenced with available weapons to some degree.
Like lose one point for every target that is not allowed to be hit with each of the weapons. Summat like that anyway.

"I think the whole system is flawed in comparing it to a real fight. There are different levels of fights, and how one would deal with them would alter depending on the situation."

No you see that has been taken into consideration. What I describe as a real fight is the worst it could probably(?) be (weapons, multiple attackers etc etc).
I've even taken into account the fact that real fights can make you die. How much more extreme do you want with that?

Whether this reflects a real fight or not is beside the point somewhat.
The fact of the matter is that all formats start from the same point (0) even if that point doesn't reflect reality.
So while a comparison with reality is a bit daft comparison with each other is valid.

Aefibird..since when has WTF allowed clinching (in terms of grabbing each other and stuff)? Chest butting each other so there's no room to kick until the ref pulls them apart doesn't count.
And someone's died doing it so more points to add there (It was a female competitor in pakistan I think. Got kicked in the neck).

Personally I think this is a laugh and will be fine tuning the process in due course and totting up the scores for many formats. So there.

[Andy]

There's a game called 'Top Trumps'.
They do cards so you can play games with cars and such based on their statistics;
You know " Best accelaration, best top speed, cornering etc.

Maybe you could approach them?
MA cards with reality, fitness, MA attributes scores?
We could all draw conclusions by playing cards.
Then we'd all know for sure!

[AngelaG]

pasmith said:

No you see that has been taken into consideration. What I describe as a real fight is the worst it could probably(?) be (weapons, multiple attackers etc etc).
I've even taken into account the fact that real fights can make you die. How much more extreme do you want with that?

It's not about how extreme you can make it but rather how real you can make it. What would be the point of training in knife defence if no one in your area ever got stabbed by a knife? What would be the point of training to kill multiple attackers if you are training because you have been a victim of domestic abuse?

Anyway it's also flawed because it judges a place purely on the sparring they do. Our sparring is the standard Shotokan kumite, but on top of that we have oyo and pressure testing, which may well involve multiple attackers etc. (The point being that black belts should be able to deal with anything and adapt accordingly). We don't enter any competitions with the oyo type stuff, but with over 200 members across the bay there is a wide range of people to work with.

[AceRimmer]

How about points for location? Nice mats? Wooden floor? Car park?

Clothing? - Gi? MMA shorts? Boots? High heels?

Interesting idea but I don't see how you would ever get people to agree on the scores!

[pasmith]

The object of this is to take individuality out of it and make it objective. Just working with the facts of what a real fight *can* involve and compare that to what the different formats allow. Obviously most fights don't have guns AND multiple attackers AND knives..but that doesn't stop them being something that they *can* have.
At no point have I said that this represents the sum total of how anyones individual training prepares them for reality. This is just about assessing competition formats.

I agree with adding the location points too. I'll factor that in at some point today.

Also at the end of the day how can anyone argue with scores that a particular format gets?
They can certainly take exception to the relative scores different criteria get but not the overall scores. All the formats are using the same formula. So even if that formula is flawed then it is flawed to the same degree across the board and therefore equal for everyone.

[AceRimmer]

pasmith said:

Also at the end of the day how can anyone argue with scores that a particular format gets?
They can certainly take exception to the relative scores different criteria get but not the overall scores. All the formats are using the same formula. So even if that formula is flawed then it is flawed to the same degree across the board and therefore equal for everyone.

Your logic is flawed there. People can argue about anything

Ok, anything goes any weapon etc etc , but ther are no attackers= -20 points. Is that more realistic that MMA or TKD comp?

[pasmith]

No that's why it automatically gets minus 20. Perhaps that should be minus100 just in case?
It's basically to stop people saying that there are no restrictions in kata (except in our understanding )therefore kata competitions would end up scoring higher than actually having to fight a real person albeit with many restrictions.
I'll update the formula at lunch time (probably).

[AceRimmer]

pasmith said:

No that's why it automatically gets minus 20. Perhaps that should be minus100 just in case?
It's basically to stop people saying that there are no restrictions in kata (except in our understanding )therefore kata competitions would end up scoring higher than actually having to fight a real person albeit with many restrictions.
I'll update the formula at lunch time (probably).

Surely that means it should be minus more. Anyone who thinks just performing kata solo will help in a real fight are somewhat losing the plot?

The general idea is interesting maybe I should do scores as I think, compare notes.....

[Andy]

Good Lord on a bike, this is like Dungeons and Dragons.
Roll a couple of dice, factor in Hit Points and Charisma = result.

[pasmith]

Yeah...fun ain't!
Look out for an updated points system that takes into account environment, ground surface and other factors.