Bassai dai bunkai wanted

[AngelaG]

I'd like some bunkai for the tiger palm bit of bassai dai, before the low yoko kekomi. So far I have as a defence from a wrist grab locking their arms up, and from a hook punch coming up with a neck lock before taking their knee out. I'd quite like some more bunkai as neither of these are really doing it for me. Anyone got any suggestions?

[Petek]

By locking the arms up do you mean, a wrist lock ?, if not find out about an aikido technique called nikkyo, it really hurts.

It tis difficult to describe in writing.

If you do,sorry, happy hunting.

[AngelaG]

Yeah this is what I meant, the wrist lock. Thanks for your help anyway.

Actually for anyone else interested there is a cool little site explaining it Here.

Angela

[Sionnagh]

I'm not more than passingly familiar with the Shotokan form but if I recall correctly you do a sort of reinforced kake uke with the right hand (left hand attached to the wrist to augment a pull)?

We do a drill whereby in response to a right-hand punch you do kake uke, left hand initially parries and seizes near the wrist and the right hand comes around to seize above the elbow and use the forearm to lock out their elbow. You only have to lock it out momentarily, then you could stomp their knee.

To me this sorta answers the question of "what if they don't leave the hand out there in a pose".


Mick

[Sasori Te]

Have you found an explanation that you like for this movement yet? What about the wrist lock explanation doesn't fit for you?

[AngelaG]

I feel that someone my size would find it difficult to apply a wrist lock to a large resisting bloke. However I did get shown a fantastic application for this move about 2 weeks ago. It consisted of wrapping their arm up with one arm, and going for the throat with the other, this also really takes them off balance. Before coming in with a strike through the knee I've practiced this on a couple of my unsuspecting mates in the dojo and it seems to be a good application. ;D

Angela

[Aefibird]

AngelaG said:

I've practiced this on a couple of my unsuspecting mates in the dojo and it seems to be a good application. ;D

...and they're still your mates after you did that to them?? ;D

[AngelaG]

Aefibird said:

...and they're still your mates after you did that to them?? ;D

Of course! they are the normal everyday karateka - they LOVE pain! ;D ;D

[Sionnagh]

Anyone who does not like this sort of thing has no business being in a dojo!

Kidding of course, but still...

I feel it's a bit of a waste of class time to do stuff that won't work for everyone. The emphasis is more on leverage and mechanics than raw strength.


Mick

[Petek]

Angela, if you go to www.karate.org.yu, you will find a 'nice' application for this move. I have'nt tried this one myself but does look very effective. Happy hunting.

[Petek]

ps the name of the article is 'Passai applications'. Passai is the okinawan/ original name of Bassai. It is an interesting/different application the move discussed in the thread, I like because it's not so passive !

bye for now

[AngelaG]

There are one of two things I would point out about the applications offered.

A ) The Yama Tsuki.
Firstly the application shown seems to rely on the attacker kicking about the waist in order to scoop the kick up. People in real fights don't tend to do karate style mae geri above the waist. I am also about the grabbing the lapel bit, as this seems to rely on strength. IMO it would be better to use balance points to unbalance the opponent.

B ) Saguri te (eye poke):
This is slightly different from the Shotokan version. Going for the eyes is always an option, however most opponents will flinch away from a grab towards the eyes. An eye gouge would be something I would use when I have few other options (Such as being overpowered on the floor). I would prefer to go for a strike before I contemplate an eye-gouge. I would also say that it is a fairly weighty responsibility to potentially blind someone for life; you had better be sure that it was a life and death situation, rather than a Saturday night boozed up scrap. There is also no real explanation for the stance he is in. In the Shotokan version it is a front stance - with the application I said in the posts above where I was going for the throat you can imagine using the front stance to drive the hand through the throat for maximum result.

[Petek]

The yama-tsuki application is a bit basic, I know, & I personally would not use it.

Yes the eye gouge is very drastic, however it is a variation on a technique.

On reflection, from that particular application, I take the action of entering in past the guard and striking. If you look at the turning of the hand at the end of the shotokan version, you could grab the back of the opponents neck, to pull his/her head forward & perform the stamp. I think you mentioned a headlock earlier in the thread.

Grasping and controlling the head is not a strength technique, more timing. It is an augmented block, after all.

I don't think that there is any one bunkai, for any one technique, it depends on the individual. One of the best books for the theory behind bunkai is 'Five years, one kata' by Bill Burgar. I got it last year for my previous birthday - Feb, and it is brilliant. It really makes you think, both about technique and the way you are attacked. You touched on that earlier in your last reply, about the yama-tsuki,no one would attack you with a bog standard mae-geri, very good against a lapel grab, or wrist grab, or someone grabing your belt/wallet though. The application in the article deals with unbalancing your opponent after all.

I know that last bit is another thread, but it's only dangerous to cross the threads/streams in ghostbusters.

I love thinking about bunkai, and analysing moves from kata. I like Bassai-dai, as contains lots of locks and arm bars, takedowns, etc - its' just knowing where to look

Hope I don't come across as too preachy

Happy bunkai hunting

[demonwarrior]

Petek said:

It is an augmented block, after all.

Please explain what you mean by "augmented block"?

[Petek]

Basicially an augmented block is a block that uses both hands, as in the morote uke towards the end of Heian Nidan. They seem to be, to begin with, very basic, even ploddy, but close in they are a good way of generating power, using body weight and motion. Blocking using both hands can be risky, but if you study kata, the preceding moveand/or the next move take this into account. They can also be a wristlock, as in Bassai-dai - tora-te. They can also be used to 'crush' an opponents' technique.

My favorite augmented block is the first move of Bassai-dai. 2 applications are :

i) Your opponent grabs your right wrist, you clasp his hand to yours, by holding it with you left hand. Then by pulling both of your hands back - as in the kata, you can apply a wristlock. This uses the bodyweight from the raised right knee/ spring forward. The more you go forward the more severe the result - either a restraint, or damage to the wrist.

ii) The 2nd application involves a lager body movement, and a slight adjustment to the hand movement. Basicially as you opponent comes forward, with whatever hand attack you move diagonally forwards to the left, batting the hand(s) away with your left palm. Then as you come down into kosa-dachi, crossed foot stance, you use the augmented block to strike the opponent in the side, either to unbalance them or to the kidney, on their right side. Timing is very important.

hope this answers your question