Applications

[James Drake]

hahaha thats alrite then!

[jtbdad]

I find this thread very interesting and even humorous. Having studied Matsubayashi Shorin-Ryu and a chinese art called Shaolin Iron Tiger I love conversations about Bunkai and stances.
I have a friend who is a Shotokan Sandan (JKA) He and I have worked out on several occassions. One day he shared with me that the first time he saw a Shorin-Ryu kata he thought the Shodan performing it was very lazy because his stances were not deep. (Shorin-Ryu stances generally are not as deep as Shotokan) I shared with him that the first time I saw a Shotokan Kata I thought the Nidan performing it was very slow. We both had a few laughs over the misunderstandings we had as beginners and then proceeded to beat the daylights out of each other in Kumite.

I agree with Angela that Chinese stances and techniques generally have ridiculous names. Sometimes they are so cryptic that it is difficult to understand how they "fit" the stance or technique. I know one form in particular that is a tiger form that utilizes "rooster hops". From a self defense standpoint they are useless and even dangerous to use as one quick sweep would result in the person using the technique getting a broken leg.
However; They are an excellent training technique to build strength and stamina in the knees and calfs.

My point is that sometimes a techniques' only bunkai is that it is useful in conditioning. It was explained to me that Shotokan uses the deep stances in Kata because it helps condition the legs and it helps the Karateka learn what a strong base feels like. I believe that many Bunkai are just like that, they may not have a direct application to Kumite but they may help condition, build coordination, or just help one to transition from one technique to another smoothly.

BTW O'Sensei Nagamine once was asked why he didn't correct his higher ranking students when they performed Kata slightly differently from each other. His response was something like the students have made the Kata their own. Therefore although different from each other none of them are "wrong"

Pray Often
Train Hard
Love Sacrificially.

[thingy]

AngelaG said:

Don't worry about it James - it gave me a giggle if nothing else ;D


Angela

How funny, I ended up googling for Sensei Sonja after reading James post. I managed to find out she was a black belt, so well done Sensei Sonja.

[Aefibird]

jtbdad said:

BTW O'Sensei Nagamine once was asked why he didn't correct his higher ranking students when they performed Kata slightly differently from each other. His response was something like the students have made the Kata their own. Therefore although different from each other none of them are wrong

Good post, especially the last point. it goes back to the thing about "what works, works." What is great for me might not be so good for someone else, but it may get the same end result. It's all MA in the end!

[AngelaG]

aefibird said:

Good post, especially the last point. it goes back to the thing about "what works, works." What is great for me might not be so good for someone else, but it may get the same end result. It's all MA in the end!

Do you think that it is worthwhile spending time on an application that doesn't work for you initially? Maybe one day it may click with you, or perhaps one day you may choose to teach it to someone, because although it may not work for you, it may work for someone else.


Angela

[Aefibird]

True point. Stuff in karate usually takes ages to click with me anyway, so if I'd given up straight away on all the things I couldn't do initially (or what wouldn't work for me initially) then I'd be left with a very very short list of workable techniques! lol

[Mr. Precision]

angelag said:

Would you say that you tend to use the bunkai told to you by your instructor etc. or do you look for your own applications?

I personally prefer discovering my own. I like to make it fit, it's like solving a puzzle.

Why the stance, what does it give me? Why the movement to the left? How is the mass moving? How would this affect the body of someone grabbing or gripping me? What if it was the opponent's left arm instead of his right arm? etc.

To be honest I reckon the process of solving the puzzle is the way.

[Aefibird]

mrprecision said:

To be honest I reckon the process of solving the puzzle is the way.

Well, it's been proven that people generally learn better by doing (rather than watching or listening), so figuring out kata and applications yourself is most likely a far better way to learn and understand it than just going along with what someone else has told you.

[Aefibird]

mrprecision said:

To be honest I reckon the process of solving the puzzle is the way.

Well, it's been proven that people generally learn better by doing (rather than watching or listening), so figuring out kata and applications yourself is most likely a far better way to learn and understand it than just going along with what someone else has told you.