Too many kata?

[Aefibird]

Would you say that karate (in general, not specific styles as there are people on here who trainin other arts, not just Shotokan) has too many kata?

Some people just end up being 'kata collectors' trying to learn as many kata as possible, either for grading reasons or to just say "I know X kata".

Certain kata are developed from others anyway - should we just stick to the 'root' kata or do you think the other kata have things to teach us that we can't learn from the original?

Would you feel that narrowing down the numbers of kata taught/learned would be beneficial to karate and to karateka or would it be better to leave things as they are?

Or are you of the opinion that the more kata learned the better? Would you prefer to see the introdution of more kata into your style?

[random]

I suppose it may depend on where someone is on the karate journey, starting out looking at 26, 32 kata could be very disconcerting, especially watching high grades jumping about and the like. For me there is enough kata in Shotokan to never get board (as if that were possible) or wanting to try someone new, although (this will be brief as there is a post about this that I haven’t got around to and I don’t want to take this one there) something with the odd weapon wouldn’t go a miss, (there said it. I will not mention them again here. Promise).

I think we often learn them out of sequence or groups, i.e. the 3 Tekki Kata’s, Bassai Dai and Sho, that kind of thing and concentrate on the kata for the next grading.

[random]

Collecting kata would probably reduce them to a nice performance with out much depth. I prefer to work on a few regularly, then change that few, to keep them fresh in my mind.

Perhaps one suggestion would be to group grades around the Heian Kata’s, maybe this would improve the understanding and ‘doing’ of the kata, rather than learning a new kata every 3 months. Although I don’t think the others should be neglected.

[malcolmtent]

I always thought karate would be better with a more judo approach. meaning no kata but just sparring with this stuff, hitting a bag or something with all this stuff as opposed to hitting the air, which hurt my joints.

in judo you just do randori, and when i got in fights i found that it was an insticnt of mine to do what id learned and have pulled of some nasty throws on concrete without having to think about applying anything because i had already done it many times before.

Why cant karate do this? then all those wicked strikes and stuff would just flow out as instinct, as would the blocking because youd have blocked loads of punches before.

it came to my notice also when i attended the karate class that they only trained for karate punches, ive never seen anyone punch like that who was trying to smash me in.

[random]

Through repetition one learns, by adding a stimulus one learns (PAVLOV). If hitting air hurt your joints then you were doing it wrong, or you may have a problems with joints? (I don’t mean to be personal just speculative). By continually sparing you get used to throwing a few techniques for a rounded approach kata kihon and kumite should be maintained, but if all you want to do if fight, then boxing is the one, do you know any 50 yr old boxers? And I do not mean punch drunk wasters but fit athletes like

[AngelaG]

malcolmtent said:

I always thought karate would be better with a more judo approach. meaning no kata but just sparring with this stuff, hitting a bag or something with all this stuff as opposed to hitting the air, which hurt my joints.

I thought judo had kata?

It's amazing how many people want to take the soul of karate out of karate. If you want to punch and kick and you don't want kata then surely we are talking kickboxing?

As for the comments about hitting air - even boxers shadow box?!

[andym]

Personally I enjoy learning new Kata and performing the ones I already know. Up till now me learning Kata was for grading purposes, whereas now I'm learning new and more technical ones, which I enjoy immenseley!

I wouldn't say there were too many.

[searcher2]

Judo does have Kata.

Another sign that few instructors are "qualified" to teach the whole art, as few clubs pass on the judo kata.

Some will say that they keep their kata for senior grades, but remeber that some kata are "2-man kata"!

[AngelaG]

I wouldn't say we have too many kata, because we can learn them all - and then once armed with all the facts we can choose which kata suits us, and concentrate on those particular kata. But if instructing when you pass on all the kata you may find that your students prefer different kata. I'd guess if someone never intends to pass on their karate knowledge they may well discard the kata which do not suit them and their needs.

[Aefibird]

malcolmtent said:

I always thought karate would be better with a more judo approach. meaning no kata but just sparring with this stuff, hitting a bag or something with all this stuff as opposed to hitting the air, which hurt my joints.

in judo you just do randori, and when i got in fights i found that it was an insticnt of mine to do what id learned and have pulled of some nasty throws on concrete without having to think about applying anything because i had already done it many times before.

Why cant karate do this? then all those wicked strikes and stuff would just flow out as instinct, as would the blocking because youd have blocked loads of punches before.

it came to my notice also when i attended the karate class that they only trained for karate punches, ive never seen anyone punch like that who was trying to smash me in.

Karate isn't just about punching air and doing kata. Through using air training and through performing kata (and understanding it) comes good fighting skill.

[Sionnagh]

We have only a handful of core kata in the syllabus. I don't think it's necessary for students to learn a lot of kata or they can end up spending all their time working just on the form. Although having said that we do have classes where time is spent looking at other kata.


Mick

[tommarker]

Something to consider is that many chinese systems have dozens and dozens of forms, and sometimes teach something like 108 weapons as well (I'm sure dozens of them are variations on a theme, though.)

Not to mention they tend to all be a lot more than 20 techniques and involve some interesting footwork, breaking out of the standard I formation.

[miffersy]

Hi,
I would say maybe as regards to there being too many Kata, in Shotokan (my predominant style ) there are 27, (including Taikyoku or Kihon Kata as it is called in some schools) most high grade instructors have done them all at one time or another over the years as I have I tend to concentrate on the pre-shodan Katas (this includes Tekki Shodan, Enpi, Hangetsu, Kanku Dai, and Jion, all Brown Belt Katas in my club) and 5 Black Belt Katas. Hopefully by doing this my students will have a better understanding of the Kata they are taught.
IMHO anyone may be able to do all the Kata in their Art, but do they really Know them. Couild they be the veritable Jack of all trades. ( I feel a new thread coming on ).

[tommarker]

Hi Miffersy,

I think the scenario you are describing is all too common, and I myself am guilty of it. At my last count, I have learned:

Sae Kye Hyung (3)
Kicho Hyung (3)
Pyung Ahn/Heian (5)
Bassai Dae/Sho (2)
Naihanchi/Tekki (3)
Sip Soo/Jitte
Jindo/Gankaku
E Sip Sa Bo/Nijushiho
Bong/Bo Hyung (5)
Dangum (Dagger) Hyung
Janggum (Sword) (3)
Ssang Chul Bong/Nunchaku (2)
Joon Bong/Tanbo
Taiji Short Form
ch'ae/Sai

If I count right, that is 33 forms, with many more to learn. I can do most of them passably.

I feel no need to pare down my forms, but I *do* feel that I specialize in a much smaller number. I keep the others around, because my students are not like me, and may find one of the others more appealing to their body type and abilities. I know enough that I could help another student make one of these 32 THEIR specialty form. Many of these forms (2nd and 3rd Naihanchi/Tekki) do very little for me, but I take immense satisfaction in performing Jindo and Naihanchi 1.

The other reason I don't abandon any of my forms is that my tastes have varied somewhat in my brief martial arts career. I used to prefer jitte over tekki, and now jitte is amongst my least favorite forms, despite what I think are some good applications.

[AngelaG]

Just out of interest, how many people think there is too much repetition within their kata syllabus? What about the Heian Kata, are they useful, and do they teach anything or could they be replaced in favour of Kanku Dai?