There is no first attack in karate.

[AngelaG]

What does this mean? It doesn’t take much to realise that this does NOT mean that we stand there while someone swings a punch, get hit in the face and then start to fight. No matter how much I train, how fit and strong I get, if a 6’+ attacker hits me in the face I am not going to be in much of a position to fight back afterwards.

So where does this lead us? Obviously if someone takes a swing for me I need to block his attack. Then I need to do some form of retaliation immediately after. The type of retaliation would depend on the situation I am in, it’s not always appropriate to do a neck wrench because one of your mates has got a bit rowdy and started to push you around. Sometimes a simple arm bar while you talk them around is the more fitting form of action.

Sometimes it is blatantly obvious that something is about to kick off in violent action, even before a single punch has been fired. The problem is that once a punch has been thrown the situation will usually escalate out of control; it’s like a no going back zone. The first step to out and out violence has been taken. Therefore sometimes it may be best to stop a situation before anyone has a chance to hit out. The best way to do this? If you are the catalyst for the event, remove yourself, get away, you may feel your pride has taken a beating but that’s better than your face taking a beating. If you are a born diplomat start to talk them down. A calm, soothing voice can sometimes do wonders. Sometimes though the situation has already started to escalate out of control, perhaps someone has laid their hands on you. Maybe then it is appropriate to retaliate in some way, either be removing the hand or by keeping it and putting it into a lock. If the would be attacker realises that you know what you are doing then they may just think that it’s not worth their while getting involved.

Perhaps another way of putting it is that there is no first INTENT towards attack in karate. We do not instigate fights; wherever possible we try to calm situations down. But sometimes there may be a situation where we need to put in the first technique, to avoid getting hurt.

[AngelaG]

Do you believe in pre-emptive striking?

[Sionnagh]

Oh yes ;D

There is one bloke (can't think of his name at the moment) who refers to it as "hitting 'em back first".

There are people however who will argue that karate ni sente nashi means you have to wait until the other person has actually tried or succeeded at hitting you before you can do anything. And since nobody ever throws just one punch... (unless it's a KO)

You could also argue that someone invading your personal space is technically assault.


Mick

[AngelaG]

Sionnagh said:

You could also argue that someone invading your personal space is technically assault.


Mick

I'm not sure you could actually argue it in a court of law though.

Anyway there'd be mayhem on the undergrounds if that was true!

[random]

I often find people are more than happy to sit back and quote Gichin Funakoshi’s principles without fully looking into the background of them, when they were written the social economic climate that shaped the original Kata. I think the one that most people get excited and moralistic about is there is no first attack in Karate. When we look at the history of Okinawa at the time of writing those principles an attack could many a varied form and likewise ones response. Wed look at the principles with our educated 21 Century minds and then we put our rose tinted glasses on and become all philosophical about it. The bottom line is we practise a violent art form (I can concede the point that for some it is a sport), Kihon, Kata, Kunite are all there for a reason, neglect one area and you are not practicing the art as a whole. But we train our bodies and our minds so that if we should become a victim of a violent attack, and that is the real threat as opposed to a fight following an argument, but if we do become victims, we react, without thinking, instinctively because we have done hours and hours of Kihon, Kata and Kumite. Fortunately, we will probably never ever have to use it except in the Dojo.

No one can decide what is a first strike and what is a pre-emptive attack. As an individual you have to make that decision for yourself and stand by it. If you feel threatened by a situation use reasonable force (the home office has guidelines about this) to defend yourself, that may mean removing yourself from the situation (always the best choice) or getting stuck in (always the first choice).

[jones]

In my oppinion people get too caught up with the "but how are you going to explain this to the police?" arguement. Usually the type of people who are going to threaten you are usually nob heads in the pubs. If you punch some chav in the face outside a night club and then kick him to pieces on the ground you still probably wont get any comebacks from the law. Fights go on all the time but the truth is that nobody cares. Even if you do get arested for hitting someone you will only get a night in the cells and then a caution.

Me and my friends were out at night around derby once and a group of lads started on us. Someone hit one of my friends in the face with a house brick. There was big fight between my mates and them until the police turned up. The police then broke it up. However, I noticed that the one with the housebrick had hardly been hit back and was smirking triumphantly. So I headbutted him in the face in full view of the police. His nose exploded and he fell over in pain. I went to football kick his head on the ground but the police arrested me and threw me in the van. I spent sixteen hours in a cell and got a caution, but that's it. 9 times out of 10 you will get away with it. The police aren't bothered about drunken skirmishes anyway.

If you think there is a remote chance that you will get hit then make sure you hit them first. Smack them with everything you've got and if they are not completely out or don't go down then smack them again and then kick their head off when they are on the ground.

[random]

I think kicking someone’s head off is a little extreme. I may have got this wrong but surely we are not here to brag of daring do in front of police. A serious MA knows when enough is enough. After all what did the head but really achieve. A sense of well being at getting revenge, rather a cheap shot if the police are there.

I am sure that someone will put forward the proposition that their dad is bigger than mine.

[jones]

After all what did the head but really achieve.

It broke his nose.

[random]

Sorry still don’t get the point.

[jones]

An eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth

[random]

Self-defence is self-defence. You violently assaulted someone and come here to drag about it.

[random]

That way we would all end up blind.

[jones]

I'm not bragging. I'm just telling you how it went. It is relavant to this topic. If someone hits me or my friends then I'll hit them back. I don't care about spending a night in the cells. The thud of my forehead smashing his nose was sweet justice for me and justice for my friend who got hit with a brick. HE neded stirches as the brick ciut all his eye open.

My point isn't to say I'm hard or anything it is that you don't really need to worry about the police that much. They really aren't bothered about some chav getting assaulted.

[random]

The fact that you use the word assaulted says it all. What did it actually achieve? It wasn’t defensive; no ones life was at risk. So you are not bothered about the police, more bravado.

[jones]

This is getting rather tedious now. Think what you want. The facts still remain.