Training time until black belt

[Karate Resource]

Feel free to explain your vote underneath.

[searcher2]

A couple of categories are missing from the options given.
"As long as it takes."
"728 training hours"

Is the criteria the same between belts (3 or 4 months) for someone who trains 5 or 6 days per week as someone who only trains twice per week?

If the "minimum time" held over EVERYONE then Sensei Enoeda could not have gone from white belt to 4th Dan during the period he was at university.

Face facts, belt times and minimum periods were created for commercial reasons. Peopel should be judged on what they can do and what they know, their dedication and spirit, not how often they turn up.

John

[Karate Resource]

I agree that unfortunately the polls cannot give the complete range of responses needed.

However I think it's useful to find out people's general opinions, and to get some debate going... even if only in the chat afterwards! I don't think it's totally wrong of me to state that a lot of people have stronger feelings on minimum times than maximum times.

[Aefibird]

I'd say roughly 4-5 years, but obviously it depends upon the person and how much they train and the effort that they put in.

It also demends on the amount of effort that someone puts in. For example, there is a 6th kyu lad at my karate club who trains twice a week. However, he puts in far more effort than a lad of similar age (about 13/14) who is a 3rd kyu and trains 3-4 times a week. Because of his dedication, and the fact that he trains every day at home, the 6th kyu will probably reach Shodan before the 3rd kyu.

It also depends upon the instructor (decent clubs tend to award belts less often than McDojo's who hand them out like Smarties) and also if the person has trained in any other style of martial art previously. For example, it would probably take a TaeKwonDo blackbelt less time to go from Shotokan white belt to Shotokan black belt than it would a person who had never trained in martial arts before.

[AngelaG]

It’s a question of first impressions. I think I’d have to say that on first impressions I would seriously doubt the abilities of anyone that told me they had got a black belt in less than 3 years (possibly more). But as grades mean different things from club to club anyway I would probably question everyone’s skill level until they had demonstrated to me that they were good at what they do. Some clubs also concentrate more on one aspect… sport karate V Self-defence karate… kumite v kata etc... So someone could be an exceptional kata specialist but get thrashed by a white belt in sparring (and vice versa)

If someone trained hard everyday and researched everything in-depth then who knows how long it would take them to reach a black belt standard? Especially if they were one of the naturally gifted people.

Actually it’s probably interesting to note that my views on this have totally changed the longer I have trained. When I first started the time scales I heard to get to Shodan used to baffle me. There are not many sports whereby it takes so long to be considered a proficient learner. Then as time went on I began to understand that there is just so much to learn (most of which is completely alien to our body!

[shotopants]

Is there really that much to learn?

There are perhaps only a few core elements to the MA.

The whole issue of grades makes me laugh. ;D When I'm training, I never wear a gi or an obi. The only people who are interested in my grades are some of my membership. I have a grade to grade other people

Interestingly, I note on the OCI site that there is no time limit between grades.

[AngelaG]

shotopants said:

Is there really that much to learn?

There are perhaps only a few core elements to the MA.
.

I guess that this leads on to an interesting question; what exactly IS a black belt? Is it purely and simply someone who can do the kata, kumite and kihon to a given standard or is something more required?

Are black belts required to show that they have an understanding of the history of their art? Are they required to show that they have some level of maturity (how do we test this?), some sort of commitment, that they are role models for the kyu grades to look up to? Perhaps a certain level of fitness.

I guess standards will vary from club to club, so how do instructors let their students know exactly what is required, especially if something like maturity is a factor. How does one measure maturity, integrity, commitment and other such facets of the human personality? Can you turn around to someone and say, " On a scale of 1-10 you are only a 5 in maturity".?

What are people's opinions on this? How is this dealt with in your club? (If at all... what targets are your black belts expected to attain?) Do people going for dan ranks know exactly what they have to do to pass?

[RDKI]

Ange,
Excellent post! Some really good thoughts & questions there.

Am I to assume that what you mean by a "black belt" is shodan, or are we including the higher dan ranks too?

If so, then my idea of a black belt is, at first, somebody who has "mastered" the basics of the art (punching kicking, kata etc with speed, power, good form etc). the higher dan ranks should signify a certain level of understanding of the art,being able to use the art (or not as mastery increases) and get maximum effects with minimum effort. For me, what I expect to see in difference between a lower and higher dan rank is that the lower rank is effective with effort - the higher rank is simply effective. Hope that makes sense??? Maturity is also a huge factor - each individual must be "judged" on their merits - no grades 1-10 or age limits as people are people and therefore differ greatly at different stages of life.

Regarding levels of fitness - this is certainly an advantage - however, in my opnion martial arts should be available to all those who wish to participate. Some people have an elitist view that you MUST be able to run so far in such a time - others feel that you MUST be able to perform a perfect jumping spinning back kick - rubbish in my opinion. If your technique is sound, you can teach or be a good role model and you CARE about and are committed to your fellow students/pupils and instructor, this is good enough for me. This is not enough fo some and this is sad. I have a Dyspraxic child in my class - he trains evey lesson and loves karate - his balance isnt great and he will never be an olympic athlete but who cares? Some would! My own cousin trained for 2 years in a wheelchair - he loved karate before becomming too weak to train - would you not grade him because he cant run miles or do 300 pressups??? Who says he would not become an excellent role model & Instructor - some would! I am not the fittest person on earth, however i CAN do karate and boy can i teach it! I am popluar and in demand as a person and instructor - however, this is not good enough for some who have criticised me - tough, I don't care and (more importantly) neither do my students, many of whom have trained with others and chosen ME over them. Some of the arts greatest masters were small, shortsighted or even, heaven forbid, fat!

If you are one of these people then I would question yourselves very hard indeed and question what place YOU have in martial arts.

Is an understanding of the history important? No! But an understanding of the history and culture in which an art developed or flourished gives a greater insight into the application of the art itself. There is an old proverb, the kanji for which appers on my (new and gorgeous ;D) club badge. It reads On Ko Chi Shin and translates as "study the past to learn the future"
Deep man, or what?

Enjoy your training - that is the important thing guys!
Sorry for the extended rant ;D
Martyn

[AngelaG]

Speaking with other martial artists I have heard of Shodan tests that involve several days of intense fitness trials and contact sparring with several black belts etc. I don't want to knock anybody elses styles/clubs etc but something like this would automatically knock me out of the running. (No pun intended!)

When I train I give 100% effort and my fitness has increased massively from when I started but nevertheless I still have limits imposed from ongoing medical conditions. I can't run fast, or for extended distances. I can't do hundreds and hundreds of push-ups. And I definitely cannot take extended periods of knocks on my joints. As much as I love my karate I am not prepared to permenantly damage myself in the process. And yet, I'm sure that I give just as much, if not more effort then the super-fit person next to me who can run for several miles without worry, do hundreds of push ups, sit-ups and fight full contact while hardly breaking a sweat.

This does leave me in a bit of a conundrum because my pride tells me that I don't want any concessions made because of my medical problems, or because I am a girl etc. but my head tells me that I will never be able to compete with a fully grown, fit man. (Physically speaking). From day one though it has been impressed on me that karate is for everyone so how do we cross that gap? For me it is to put as much effort in as the fully grown, fit male even if the outcome is not as 'impressive'; I have also been given a good brain and I can do research into the art as well; and to find techniques that work for me, that don't rely on strength, or size etc. Everyone has our strong points and weak points, the best we can do is to maximise our strong points and minimise our weak points; and to take away our opponents strong points and exploit their weak points. That way, we are all playing on a level playing field.