Belts

[Karate Resource]

Feel free to explain your vote below!

[Aefibird]

I've chosen the "2-3 coloured belts & black" option.

I think that the belt system can have its uses, althouth a lot of clubs put too much emphasis just on 'training for the next belt'.

That's why I think that having a longer time between belt promotions whilst still giving the martial artist something to aim for would be a better system.

It's a good feeling to get another coloured belt, but it shouldn't be overdone. It should be seen as a reward for hard work and dedicated training, rather than the ability to simply learn the grading syllabus off by heart and regurgitate it when asked.

Personally, I'd have white, green, brown and black belts, so that some distinction could be made between the levels, but not so that the emphasis is simply on getting the next bit of coloured cloth.

I've trained in a system with 8 belt colours from white up to black (Shotokan) and also in a style that only has white and black (Aikido). Currently, I train in a style that has no coloured belts (Wing Chun), so I've been able to see the differences in belt and no-belt styles.

In my Shotokan club my instructor places emphasis on actually learning karate, rather than learning stuff for a grading, which is a good thing. However, having that many coloured belt grades can sometimes make some clubs feel like a 'belt factory' that is simply there to churn out as many higher grades as possible.

At the opposite end of the scale, the Aikido and Wing Chun training that I've done can sometimes feel as though a person isn't actually learning or progressing. Now, I know that a piece of coloured cloth wrapped around your waist doesn't automatically mean that you 'know' the things needed to get that belt grade, but the coloured belt system can be a useful guide for students to look back on and see how far they have come.

I just think that the belt system shouldn't be overdone...

Just my £0.02! Sorry for the long post, I'm in a bit of a talkative mood today. ;D

[AngelaG]

What are the point of belts? In Western Society we are used to immediate results, we expect constant gratification in order to maintain our interest levels. Belts have been brought in to cater to the Western Mindset. There are a lot of people out there what would not be happy with the old system of white belt / black belt. Their interest would wane and soon they’d look to other things. This especially applies to children, who have shorter attention spans, and for whom time seems to travel a lot slower. (How long was it from Christmas to Christmas as a kid?)

At this stage I can say that I am no longer belt chasing (although I am not hypocritical enough to say that I do not look forward to my gradings). But I am content enough to study whatever I need to study and to go a bit more in-depth on certain subjects, rather then skimming over what I need to know to scrape though a grading. Proving myself to be worthy of the grade I am has become more important than becoming the next grade. In the early days of my karate it was a different story. I had enough to worry about with working out what foot was supposed to go where, while co-ordinating my hands as well that I really did not want to research too much background stuff as well. It was enough for me to know whatever I had to do to get my next belt and that was all I wanted. I was champing at the bit to get my 9th Kyu… wearing that strip of colour for the first time was pretty cool.

The main problems with belts come when a) they are handed out like candy in order to keep numbers up b) there are way too many ranks (I have seen one website where it takes 30 gradings to get to black belt!) that you can’t but help think they are just trying to gain revenue c) gradings are extortionate in price (and go up with each grade) d) people are required to join expensive black belt clubs after a certain grade to progress any further.

The point about karate is that for the majority of people, passionate about it as they may be, it is a hobby. People do hobbies because they are fun. Receiving your new coloured belts can be fun! I was happy with the 10 kyu system, I think I would have been just as happy with a 7 kyu system, but less than that and I may have felt that gradings were too far apart and started to feel a bit frustrated.

[searcher2]

A couple of things:
Belts weren't invented for the west. The Japanese University system made use of them first. True there might have been fewer colours in those days, but they like their structure and feeling of belonging to a certain strata of society.
One Japanese instructor even went so far as to give meanings to the colours that he awarded (Now you have reached Mystical Purple Belt young grasshopper).

Then the point of belts is to define where you are "at". They are of benefit to the instructor (You should have an understanding of Heian Shodan by now Brown belt), and they let you know how you are doing.

The system in itself is not bad, it's just as open to mis-use as every other system on the planet.

The Dan grade system would seem to have originated in the Japanese game of "Goh" (a kind of "handicap" system to make sure that you played against someone of similar ability to yourself). Since then it has been asigned to many facets of Japanese life, from chado (the Way through tea ceremony) to flower arranging.

Having a Dan grade in itself is not remarkable, its who gave it to you and what you did to earn it that's important.

John

[shotopants]

I agree with John.

What about those who have their juniors promote them to then promote their juniors?

[searcher2]

FYI

TEXT started training in 1943. Shodan in 1946, age 23 director of the JKA. Nidan in 1948. Sandan in 1950

TEXT started in 1942. Shodan in 1944. Nidan at university after WWII, Sandan & Yondan in 1955

TEXT started in 1952, was a Sandan in 1956

TEXT started in 1954(?), was a yondan in 1964

TEXT started in July 1922, received Shodan 12th Aprill 1924

Please reply with lots of information about how these people were training 5 days a week, 4 hours per day. Please note that they were also taking university courses and obtained degrees.

These are all products of Master Funakoshi's gradings, yet most of them then inflicted waiting times on the members of their (later) associations.

John

[searcher2]

Okay, so it missed the names off when you add tags in bold. In order:

Nishyama
started training in 1943. Shodan in 1946, age 23 director of the JKA. Nidan in 1948. Sandan in 1950

Ozawa
started in 1942. Shodan in 1944. Nidan at university after WWII, Sandan & Yondan in 1955

Enoeda
started in 1952, was a Sandan in 1956

Abe
started in 1954(?), was a yondan in 1964

Ohtsuka
started in July 1922, received Shodan 12th Aprill 1924

[Shotochick]

Some schools (referd to as McDojos in another forum), use gradings as a revenue raising exercise.

2-4 Kyus grades I think are really all that are needed. I know what I can do, and what my students can do, I dont need a belt to tell me so!

[AngelaG]

Shotochick said:

Some schools (referd to as McDojos in another forum), use gradings as a revenue raising exercise.

2-4 Kyus grades I think are really all that are needed. I know what I can do, and what my students can do, I dont need a belt to tell me so!

I am a bit doubtful on the 'Belts' as revenue argument. If anyone wants to make money they will always find some sucker with more cash than sense. You don't need loads of belts to do it.

Pcture the scenario:
Dojo A has 10 Kyu grades. They charge £10 per grading.
Dojo B has 4 Kyu Grades. They spout loads of BS about how they are a 'proper' MA school as they don't have the belt factory and therefore their grades are worth much more, and you are only grading 4 times yada yada yada, and they then charge £50 per Kyu grading.

Who's making more money?

I think you can only tell for definite whether something is a McDojo if you train there... although, you can get a pretty good idea from ads, talent of their students etc.

[gh0st]

White / Black

The distinction between instructor and student should be made clear, the rest is made clear by the ability shown by the students.

[AngelaG]

gh0st said:

White / Black

The distinction between instructor and student should be made clear, the rest is made clear by the ability shown by the students.

Ah but if you are in a dojo with loads of students it is very helpful for the Instructor to be able to say "Orange belts do this, red belts do that" etc. For things like kata, kihon combinations etc. belts are a handy device for the Instructor to know what the student should be doing, and for the student to know exactly where they are!

[Karate Resource]

Bump for new member input.

KR Admin