kicky kicky

[thingy]

Hello

Just read this on the main webpage:

"Karate is not about doing the fancy head kicks, twirling and kiaing loudly (or at least it shouldn't be). "

There'll always be people that don't like the flashy high kicking twirly stuff, and always people that like it.

So d'ya think there's any point to it, any reason for practicing such things?

Well do you (punk)?

[AngelaG]

It would all come down to personal reasons for practicing their chosen martial art. If the reason you are training is to learn self-defence then I see little reason in learning high kicks. Most people will never become fast enough to kick above waist height before their opponent spots them and either moves enough to ride most of the force of the blow, or worst case scenario actually catch the kick. If you kick high you risk exposing the groin area and unbalancing yourself. The highest I’d recommend kicking is the groin, but even then, your knee would be a much better weapon (and it’s already a lot closer to the intended target area). For self defence kicks to the knees and thighs seem to be sufficient, and the safer, nastier weapon.

If you are training for competition then you may want to practice fancier high kicks, either for your kata or for kumite competitions. In kumite you have to hit above the belt anyway and a nice head shot is going to impress the judges so much more. It may be totally impractical but it looks good.

If you are running a business you may want to do displays and demos. The general public want to see lots of near acrobatic displays, spinning high kicks, board breaking and all the other related spectacles that no discerning martial artist would ever call real self defence. Unfortunately it is this kind of demo that will generate interest in the club… most people want to believe they can be Bruce Lee with a little bit of training. Kicking at knee height, while brutal, does not impress.

The universal reason for training high kicks would be to train at your max potential. If you can train to kick head height in a fast, controlled, balanced manner then your kicks at waist height will also improve… and they will be a lot easier. It’s also good for building flexibility. When I first started head height kicks weren’t even in the pipeline; now I can reach there, and I’m not going to let that slip.

[thingy]

AngelaG said:

...board breaking and all the other related spectacles that no discerning martial artist would ever call real self defence.

Board breaking is related to self-defence. It's not self defence in itself, but learning how to hit something hard without hurting yourself is a valuable lesson.
Padwork is good too, but not the same - there's an element you learn from board breaking thats just missing in padwork - or at least harder to gauge.

[demonwarrior]

thingy said:

Board breaking is related to self-defence. It's not self defence in itself, but learning how to hit something hard without hurting yourself is a valuable lesson.
Padwork is good too, but not the same - there's an element you learn from board breaking thats just missing in padwork - or at least harder to gauge.

I'd disagree with this. I'd say board breaking is more about the 'trick shot'. Pads are much better at training how to hit. With boards you line up and take the shot. With held pads you can move around as an attacker would do, create confusion, and if using a heavy bag you are can visualise the different body area and move around it. I think it's dangerous to teach people that their one (prepared) strike is so dangerous that it can even break wood(!), so as to not follow up with other strikes. It presents a false sense of achievement.

[thingy]

Yeh sorry I'm not making myself mega clear.
I'd never say I think board breaking is better than padwork. There are certainly loads of benefits padwork has over board breaking, as you said.

There are benefits each way though.

Breaking boards becomes less "prepared" after a while too. It's always going to be a pretty static exercise, especially when compared to something like padwork but it does depend on how much ritual you want to put around it.

It's easy to be impressed by the chap that kicks the pad so hard that the person holding gets sent back 10' (if they're holding one of those big shield things). And it's equally easy to get caught up in that and start kicking the pad so the holder gets sent flying. Ideally what should happen though is that the pad holder stays on the spot but buckles over.
If nothing else, breaking boards is absolutely great for developing the latter kind of hit.

[searcher2]

Depends what pads you use.
Try etha-foam.
How is board with spacers between them piled up related to the correct movement required to hit someone steaming towards you intent on taking your head off?

[searcher2]

How about practising high kicks just for the sake of pushing yourself?

Just to see if you can?

To improve your flexibility?

To win friends and influence people?

[Tommy_P]

AngelaG said:

If you can train to kick head height in a fast, controlled, balanced manner then your kicks at waist height will also improve… and they will be a lot easier.

I wonder about this. I'm not versed in the specifics but it has been my belief (through certain experiences) this is where specificity comes into play.

Different muscle groups for different things. Train high kicks and become good at high kicks. To kick at wiast level would change the way the muscles are being used and thus require practice specific to that action. Maybe someone has some valid information on this??

Tommy

[thingy]

searcher2 said:

How is board with spacers between them piled up related to the correct movement required to hit someone steaming towards you intent on taking your head off?

Ok ok, I know I'm not going to convince any of you, but I can't stop myself posting.
Here goes:

You get a board holder, a wooden frame thing, put a bunch of bits of stuff (wood) in (without spacers in between), and they are held in front of you.
Then you hit the wood.
A few things can happen.
1) If you're innacurate, you don't break
2) If you've hit the wood with a big heavy but not piercing strike, the wood stays intact, the holder slides back or falls over.
3) If you strike with all speed but not enough follow through or input of mass, you may break the some of the boards if you're lucky, but not all of them.

The trick is to come up with a strike which is concentrated, piercing and powerful. Like or not like the idea of breaking boards but can you deny that this is a useful way to be able to strike.
It doesn't have to be about standing there for 5 minutes pulling faces, and practicing the move in slow motion over and over again before hitting it, you can just hit it.

Pads are absolutely great but they let you get away with so much more, and the two exercises complement each other.

As for the piles of stuff with spacers, yes i'd agree thats not really related to the correct movement required to hit someone steaming towards you intent on taking your head off.

[AngelaG]

And then you can punch your way out of a coffin should you ever need to..... Well it worked in Kill Bill 2!

Sorry just teasing. I do see your point, it's just I can see better ways to train. But like you say, that doesn't mean it is totally useless.

[AngelaG]

Tommy_P said:

I wonder about this. I'm not versed in the specifics but it has been my belief (through certain experiences) this is where specificity comes into play.

Different muscle groups for different things. Train high kicks and become good at high kicks. To kick at wiast level would change the way the muscles are being used and thus require practice specific to that action. Maybe someone has some valid information on this??

Tommy

Well I am not a biologist by any means but thinking logically, it would be extremely weird if someone could do really impressive fast, powerful face high kicks, but their waist high kicks sucked???

Maybe it's true, but I would think that training to your max would mean that you are increasing your potential all along the line.

[Aefibird]

Personally, I like high kicks, if only for the reason that it has taken me ages to be able to kick to head height - I'm as naturally flexible as a broom handle. The feeling of achievement and satisfaction that I get by being able to ding someone in the ear with a roundhouse kick or whatever is a great one.

However, I'm also a realist. My Shotokan Sensei is very into realistinc training and street self defence. As Angela has already poined out it would be very foolish to try and kick an attacker in the head in a real street fight, unless your kicks were as fast as lightening. I like being able to kick high, but I'd rather be able to kick correctly and quickly in a defense situation, than being able to kick head height in a point sparring competition.

Still, whether they're practical or no, it looks good to be able to do flashy and fancy high kicks. A little looking good every now and then does no one any harm - we all like an ego boost from time to time and if a person gets theirs by being able to do a "triple spinning mega leap super duper jump flying kick" then that's up to them.

I'm of the opinion that if a martial artist wants to spend a portion their time training in the flashy stuff then they should have every right to be able to, as long as they realise that most of the flashy stuff is exactly that - flash.

Bit of a long and rambling post there. Hope it made some sense...

[AngelaG]

How do you train for those high kicks? How do you train the balance needed to do them properly? How do you ensure that you don't hyperextend your knees and cause injury?

[thingy]

Tommy_P said:

I wonder about this. I'm not versed in the specifics but it has been my belief (through certain experiences) this is where specificity comes into play.

Different muscle groups for different things. Train high kicks and become good at high kicks. To kick at wiast level would change the way the muscles are being used and thus require practice specific to that action. Maybe someone has some valid information on this??

Tommy

AngelaG said:

Well I am not a biologist by any means but thinking logically, it would be extremely weird if someone could do really impressive fast, powerful face high kicks, but their waist high kicks sucked???

Maybe it's true, but I would think that training to your max would mean that you are increasing your potential all along the line.

Interesting debate. I suspect that it's not so black & white and the answer lies in both courts.

Muscle memory will play a part.
Techniques can and do change form depending on their intended height.

If you take it to a further extreme - rather than face high kicks vs waist high, think of face high vs knee height. Doing a technique to these different heights feels completely different.

Training to your max will help all along the line, but you can't only do high kicks and then assume that means you'll be good at the middle and low kicks, you have to practice those too. (Sorry for stating the obvious).

Importantly, training to your max will mean that you are developing flexibility and muscle strength which will help more than just that specific kick but others too.

When someone can't do a high kick it's common to put this down to a lack of flexibility, but of course strength is a big player and this is often the root of the problemo, you have to have the strength to move your foot through this predetermined path.

[thingy]

AngelaG said:

How do you train for those high kicks? How do you train the balance needed to do them properly? How do you ensure that you don't hyperextend your knees and cause injury?

I once attended a seminar with a chap who is called Bill "Superfoot" Wallace, and has been pretty well known in the MA world for a while now.
Interesting gent, for those who don't know, he was an undefeated full contact champion for something like 10 years, was in the Guinness book of records for the fastest recorded kick, and was a baddie in one of Jackie Chans worst films.
I reckon I could start a thread all about his take on training, in fact I might at some point....

Anyway we spent a lesson going through a part of his training regime and it was very simple. I mean it was simple to explain, not to do....

Get a partner to hold out their hand, or just grab something to keep your balance.
Lift up your knee and then throughout the exercise you must make sure you don't drop your foot to the ground.
Chamber a roundhouse kick, to the point where the hips are turned over.
Hold it for a quite a while, then slowly push out the roundhouse kick - hold that for ages, really ages, then slowly return to the chamber.
Repeat, something like 10 times, it takes quite a while, then from the chamber position, as fast as you can kick out 20 roundhouse kicks, then you can put the foot down.

It's agony.
Well, it worked very well for him.