Renraku's...Yes or No?

[pasmith]

Do any of your guys have to learn Renrakus in your Karate?
If you don't they are kind of like a fighting kata. Mostly done in a fighting stance and from a guard (rather than formal stances and hikite (sp?)).
In Shidokan we learn 2 of them in the first two grades.
Not sure how I feel about them.
As a way of teaching people to fight I feel that the techniques contained in what we do could be improved.

[andym]

Sorry, I've never heard of them. Any more info?

[AngelaG]

No I've not heard of them, but then I do kind of wonder when I hear something like these are "fighting kata". Eh? What are all the other ones they do then?? This to me kind of highlights the fact that possibly someone, somewhere has missed the point of the other kata.

Saying that I have seen videos of "freeform" kata which were done in a higher stance with a guard... it didn't to me look like the club in question had put in much thought to the applications behind the techniques.

[pasmith]

Heh...thought that might tweak ya.

Here's a link to a .gif of the first Shidokan Renraku. These days we do it in a less rigid style (as I explained).

www.shidokan.co.uk/Techniques/1strenraku.htm

As I say I don't know what to make of it.
It's like a short kata. Which is odd if kata do what they are supposed to do.
I'm not a big believer in kata as it is. If someome asked me to invent a short street effective mini-kata it wouldn't look anything like that gif.

Just wondered how wide-spread this kind of thing was.

[AngelaG]

A kata is just a training drill - similar to any ofther martial art. It's a part of a greater whole. A gedan barai is a gedan barai whether done from a high stance, or a long, low stance. Worked with a partner it's only ever as effective as the principles being used, and the sense of the application given.

People seem to lose sight of what they are due to the highly stylised approach. Or they are looking for something too deep and esoteric when a more simple answer is glaring them in the face.

[thingy]

pasmith said:

Here's a link to a .gif of the first Shidokan Renraku. These days we do it in a less rigid style (as I explained).

Gosh, not what I expected at all from your description.

A few years ago I went and had a go at our local kempo karate club. They trained the same night as my club so it wasn't something I could take up.

From what I remember, they explained to me that they didn't do solo kata, but they did do fighting kata, like this:

1 person was stood there, with 4 people surrounding him.
Each person surrounding would attack the person in the middle, with some attack, a punch or a bearhug or something and the person in the middle would defend themselves.
But every part of it, every attack and every defense was part of a pre-arranged routine.

That's what I thought you were talking about. They certainly seemed to be liking what they were doing and giving it lots of gusto.

[random]

Can’t say I have come across this kind of thing on my travels. Sounds like something someone has thought up to make up for their lack of kata knowledge. The images from the link didn’t turn me onto the idea either.

[Aefibird]

I've never heard of renraku in karate before, but I can remember a couple of times that we've trained in a 2-person set kata that my Sensei has nicked from somewhere. It's not Shotokan, but I can't remember what style he said it was from. We've only ever done it a couple of times, just as a "something different" but I shall have to ask him if we can go over it again sometime, so that I can write a description of it on here.

[AngelaG]

aefibird said:

I've never heard of renraku in karate before, but I can remember a couple of times that we've trained in a 2-person set kata that my Sensei has nicked from somewhere..

Is this any different from flow drills, i.e. the kind of thing that Patrick McCarthy sensei does?

I like flow drills. ;D

[pasmith]

I'm a complete beginner at this Karate lark and I can't really see what they are for.
They don't seem any different to kata to me (albeit a bit shorter).
Just an extra thing for people to remember itr seems.

[AngelaG]

pasmith said:

I'm a complete beginner at this Karate lark and I can't really see what they are for.
They don't seem any different to kata to me (albeit a bit shorter).
Just an extra thing for people to remember itr seems.

I can't see what renrakus are for either, like I said it seems to me that someone hasn't understood the point of a kata, and has created new (to all intents and purposes) kata, named them something different and said they are for "combat". Which is what kata are for...

Flow drills are good for partner work, and to me, help show the link between kata and fighting (for those that don't get it).

[nkudahc]

most schools that i've seen have some set of self-defence techniques that they practice, i suppose you could call those a kata right?

[AngelaG]

nkudahc said:

most schools that i've seen have some set of self-defence techniques that they practice, i suppose you could call those a kata right?

Indeed.

[nkudahc]

angelag said:

nkudahc said:

most schools that i've seen have some set of self-defence techniques that they practice, i suppose you could call those a kata right?

Indeed.

so then it wouldn't be too much of a strech for someone to call those a "fighting kata"...but i do agree with you, it seems like they may be missing the point of all their other kata

[AngelaG]

Yeah, I am just saying that hypothetically all patterns or forms are "fighting" kata, so these aren't exactly earth shattering. And I wonder if they have these "fighting" kata, what do they practice all the other kata for??? Kata were formed with combatative reason in mind, just because some schools don't practice them like that any more does not take away the initial reason