paulhe
KR Orange Belt
Posts: 30
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Post by paulhe on Feb 25, 2006 12:00:51 GMT
Richard Amos taught me one of Sensei Asai's 'fighting' kata named Suishu. It's very relaxed and flows nicely, unlike alot of the 'clunky' fundamental Shotokan 15. I like it but do you need it on top of everything else? Probably not, but nevertheless I've added it to my personal list of regularly practised kata.
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Post by Aefibird on Feb 25, 2006 17:49:22 GMT
if it is relaxed and flows nicely, then maybe it shouldn't just be a kata "in addition to" the other Shotokan fundamental 15 but one that could perhaps replace it? If it seems to flow better and be better constructed than kata such as the Heian series (a kata set I would be happy to see disappear IMO) then the 'better' kata should be practice more than the others and not just be a top up or additional kata? If you see what I mean....  |
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Post by nkudahc on Feb 25, 2006 20:43:10 GMT
if it is relaxed and flows nicely, then maybe it shouldn't just be a kata "in addition to" the other Shotokan fundamental 15 but one that could perhaps replace it? If it seems to flow better and be better constructed than kata such as the Heian series (a kata set I would be happy to see disappear IMO) then the 'better' kata should be practice more than the others and not just be a top up or additional kata? If you see what I mean.... what about tradition? carrying on the legacy that has been left to us and such... |
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Post by Aefibird on Feb 26, 2006 11:19:51 GMT
Yeah, carrying on tradition is all very well IMO, but what if that tradition isn't as good as something recently developed/thought out? Tradition is good when it is a worthwhile tradition, otherwise it just becomes something that is done "because we've always done it". This applies to a lot of things not just karate...
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Post by AngelaG on Feb 26, 2006 11:44:55 GMT
What's wrong with the Heian kata? I think it's a pretty decent introduction for karate.
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Post by Aefibird on Feb 26, 2006 12:59:55 GMT
Well, as an introduction to karate it's good, but everything in Heian kata can be found in other kata, such as Kanku Dai and Bassai Dai. I know other people like them and think them useful, It's just my personal opinion that I would do away with them, in much the same way that I'd get rid of the stripe belts we have at my karate club for 4th, 2nd and 1st kyu.
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Post by nkudahc on Feb 26, 2006 13:56:28 GMT
Well, as an introduction to karate it's good, but everything in Heian kata can be found in other kata, such as Kanku Dai and Bassai Dai. I know other people like them and think them useful, It's just my personal opinion that I would do away with them, in much the same way that I'd get rid of the stripe belts we have at my karate club for 4th, 2nd and 1st kyu. i'm not very familiar with shotokan or the heian kata, but they are the beginning kata right? if you throw them out where do you start? |
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Post by Aefibird on Feb 28, 2006 16:31:56 GMT
Personally, and this is just my "wishful thinking" sorta scenario, I'd start students off with Kanku Dai (Kushanku) kata, as I think that this is one of the main kata for Shotokan students.
As it is, Heian kata seem to be that firmly intertwined with Shotoka that you'd be hard pressed to find a club that doesn't train in them.
I can see the benefit and value of having a sort-of 'beginners' kata... The Heians just aren't a favourite set of mine really and I think that basically everything in them can be learned from other kata... just one of my little oddities....
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paulhe
KR Orange Belt
Posts: 30
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Post by paulhe on Mar 2, 2006 8:38:43 GMT
if it is relaxed and flows nicely, then maybe it shouldn't just be a kata "in addition to" the other Shotokan fundamental 15 but one that could perhaps replace it? If it seems to flow better and be better constructed than kata such as the Heian series (a kata set I would be happy to see disappear IMO) then the 'better' kata should be practice more than the others and not just be a top up or additional kata? If you see what I mean.... I'm all for evolution but due to association and syllabus constraints, as an instructor I cannot go relpacing kata. However, my own training is totally different. I only ever run through the Heian Kata's now when I teach them and so my basic kata has become Kanku Dai. |
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Post by AngelaG on Mar 2, 2006 8:54:00 GMT
Hmmm I can just see the initial student drop out if you confront them with Kanku Dai and say "That's your kata, that is!". We start with kihon kata and even then we see people nearly spontaneously combust with the "complicated" pattern. Kanku dai is a nice kata but it's just so LONG. I think the break down of the heian kata are a lot more user friendly, and I do wonder if the general dislike of them comes from a sort of snobbery from people aware that they were formulated for primary school children.  (Not aimed at anyone on here, just a general observation).  |
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Post by random on Mar 2, 2006 9:33:36 GMT
what about tradition? carrying on the legacy that has been left to us and such... One of the problems we get into when talking about tradition is defining what is tradition and what is traditional, it is the tradition in Shotokan (and other styles) that we do kata, and we have some traditional kata which we do. However by introducing a new kata, or variation on a theme, we are still maintaining the tradition of doing kata, just not using the traditional ones. |
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Post by andym on Mar 2, 2006 9:37:58 GMT
I have to point out that everyone that has commented on this thread is an experienced Karate-ka. Therefore Heian Kata's will seem simple and pointless. Just try and remember back to the first time you perfected the Kata for your grade....how happy and accomplished did you feel?
I think Angela is right, you give a beginner Kanku Dai they'll run a mile! Bassai Dai looked complicated to me when I first started, never mind Kanku! lol
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paulhe
KR Orange Belt
Posts: 30
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Post by paulhe on Mar 2, 2006 10:44:11 GMT
Sorry If my last post suggested thatI would do away with the Heian kata. I actually agree with you and Angela - I think that the Heian's are very well structured and great for development through the grades. I do feel however that at a certain level you can 'put them away' an work purely on the 'advanced' kata's. Janet & John books taught me to read but that doesn't mean that I need to go back to them anymore (hmmmm well not too often).
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Post by AngelaG on Mar 2, 2006 11:42:33 GMT
I don't know, I think the Heian kata have plenty contained within them to keep even the most seasoned karateka amused , and in fact Heian Yondan still remains one of my favourite kata. Unsu or Heian Kata anyone? Heian Yondan it is then ;D
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Post by andym on Mar 2, 2006 12:11:56 GMT
Sorry If my last post suggested thatI would do away with the Heian kata. I actually agree with you and Angela - I think that the Heian's are very well structured and great for development through the grades. I do feel however that at a certain level you can 'put them away' an work purely on the 'advanced' kata's. Janet & John books taught me to read but that doesn't mean that I need to go back to them anymore (hmmmm well not too often). I agree Paul. There does come a point where you can 'put them away' but you'd still need to get them out once in a while to dust them off. Plus you can't really get away from them if you teach! ;D Like Angela, I'm a massive fan of Yondan. |
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(Not aimed at anyone on here, just a general observation). 
