Traditional Politeness

[random]

Hindsight is for the careless. How do we know who is wrong and who is right, there isn’t a definitive text, just lots of different opinions, some supporting one way some another-so who is right? And considering that the bow is one of the first things we do when the class opens, when we fight, then it is important to get it right, or at least have a basic understanding of what we are doing. All of my instructors have been trained by the Japanese whom first brought Karate to England, they are now passing on what they were taught, or at least I hope they are. So are we dealing with cross-cultural differences? An amalgamation of lots of different ideas? I think we can agree that a bow should come from the waist and not the neck, but should we always keep an eye on the opponent? How low should we bow? Should a lower grade bow lower than a higher grade? And I may have missed it somewhere else, but what are we supposed to be doing with me hands? At the side? Held up in front of the chest? Held up in front of the face?

[whitewarlock]

angelag said:

WW, it is the nature of forums everywhere that one cannot pick and choose the nature of where the topic decides to go.

AnG, i'm aware of the nature of forums... however, for the past few posts i've been boldly attempting to redirect the topic 'back' to the topic at hand and away from the tangent that has encouraged my earlier posts to be completely dismissed. Whatever you may perceive my comments to be, it is not to encourage further discussion about what is acceptable or not acceptable in these forums, only what i would prefer and thus what i am encouraging, through the use of discouragement to continue on with these 'tangents,' of which this is one as well.


Aefibird, the deviation is subtle, but it is sufficient enough to pull away from the specifics of the topic, in that the tangents are focusing on 'how' a specific act of politeness is performed rather than on the more interesting central point of these discussions, which is that politeness of a traditional nature is being interpreted and utilized in differing ways, and those differences are such that it becomes obvious very few schools actually even 'know' what traditional politeness is. Because of this, the central point brings up some very interesting issues of discussion regarding 'why,' as opposed to 'how.' Also, as i've previously indicated, i'm attempting to encourage discussion back to the more 'interesting' part of all this.

Unfortunately, and once again, the tangents seem to take central stage and thus i probably should just give up altogether this Lucy episode and move in with Fred & Ethel.

[whitewarlock]

random said:

Hindsight is for the careless. How do we know who is wrong and who is right, there isn’t a definitive text, just lots of different opinions, some supporting one way some another-so who is right?

Well, actually there are definitive texts on bowing. The problem is there are plenty of texts out there, regarding bowing, that are incorrect and/or cursory. Twice i presented a link to a particular book that gives 5+ pages of detailed examination on Japanese bowing, once i've given a link to an internet-accessible article that gives a clear breakdown on the various bows and their appropriate applications.

As to the various instructors that have trained in Japan, as i've indicated... few Japanese today actually know traditional ettiquette. What is practiced today is a mishmash, and as the article written by Darren Smith indicates, in some of the larger corporations of Japan, new Japanese employees are required to attend a 'basic ettiquette' course... specifically because few actually know even the basics.

random said:

How low should we bow? Should a lower grade bow lower than a higher grade? And I may have missed it somewhere else, but what are we supposed to be doing with me hands? At the side? Held up in front of the chest? Held up in front of the face?

Many of these answers can be obtained from this article -
F. Darren Smith's article, To Bow or Not To Bow


I want some of you to consider a few other things. As i indicated earlier, other nations perform acts of bowing to communicate recognition, politeness, respect, etc, thus there are different ways of doing such. Consider this, then also consider that karate originated in Okinawa, which was conceived from native and Chinese studies. So, while there is a great emphasis on performing 'Japanese' ettiquette in the dojo, is it acceptable... or is such a thing insulting to Okinawans as a whole? I mean, are we to emulate the salesman's mannerisms, or the artisan's mannerisms? For that matter, what is the purpose of emulating anyone's mannerisms, when it is the art we truly wish to learn and not mannerisms that are both alien to us (and everyone we socialize with), and that are being grossly misrepresented?

[whitewarlock]

*cricket*

[Aefibird]

whitewarlock said:

For that matter, what is the purpose of emulating anyone's mannerisms, when it is the art we truly wish to learn and not mannerisms that are both alien to us (and everyone we socialize with), and that are being grossly misrepresented?

I suppose that many people think of the whole bowing malarky as being part of "authentic" karate - it goes back to the traditions thread about what is "traditional" karate. Many people just see the white gi, different coloured belts, bowing and use of Japanese terms and assume that it is therefore "traditional" and "authentic" karate. For many people the image and the illusion that they are getting a traditional product is enough; they may even feel "cheated" if those traditions that they have come to expect from karate are not there.