Where's the connection?

[Mr. Precision]

Thought I'd pop into a local shito-ryu club today and see how they do things. One thing struck me very strongly indeed.

The basics can be used directly, as trained.

In Shotokan, the exagerated movements mean that the basics are relatively useless as they are trained, they look good, are strongly performed but you could almost never use an oi zuki in zenkutsu dachi in real life. The shito equivalent is perfectly usable, it looked like my bunkai. This means there's a direct and natural flow of techniques from kata to kihon to kumite. It also cleared up my block fixation in about 30 seconds flat, 80% of the movement is superfluous.

With shotokan, the connection, the flow of technique is restricted, you can't use many of the kata or kihon techniques directly, you have to analyse the kata and kihon first then essentially create another style with shorter stances, shorter faster movements for use when you practice oyo and kumite. This may be fine if the sensei (and student) understands how important it is that this is how shotokan is supposed to be used and performs bunkai, oyo and kumite appropriately. I'll bet most of the clubs out there don't realise the importance.

[searcher2]

I think you miss-apply Shotokan distances the same way the "sport crowd" do.
Oi-zuki is perfectly useable - as long as you connect part way through the movement (thereby leaving a portion of the movement to "push through" or penetrate the attacker).
The problem comes when people think that you only make contact at the end. Given, you would not begin in zenkutsudachi, so a punch might look more like Wado's junzuki (essentially the same, beginning from natural stance). STannce is the last part of a technique to take place - it is the application of body-weight to your technique.
In kata, punches always follow something else. ARm-bar him, then hit him. Break his jaw with your fore-arm, then hit him in the throat. Strike into the bicep with an open hand then, punch him.

You should aim to make a stance, even if you don't achieve it because of the proximity of the opponent, otherwise you are not intending to go through them, just sting the surface.

[Mr. Precision]

searcher2 said:

You should aim to make a stance, even if you don't achieve it because of the proximity of the opponent, otherwise you are not intending to go through them, just sting the surface.

Stepping backwards defending a punch for instance changes the maai dramatically depending on the depth of the stance. It changes the ability to strike back.

[random]

I may have missed the point…but…how long have you trained in shito-ryu to be able to extract such meaningful diagnoses of the system??

Just for the record, I did 3 years I n shito-ryu when I lived in Northampton…my wilderness years (not in ma per say, but life in general).

[Aefibird]

Yeah, northampton is a bit of a wilderness anyway.

Anyway, basics can be used directly as trained in Shotokan too. As searcher2 says it's about the appication of the distance. The movement isn't meant to just connect at the end of technique. That's one of the things that my Sensei demonstrates basically every week (usually on me), especially with techniques such as oi-zuki and gyaku-zuki, as many people think that the technique connects at the end of the arm's movement when in reality a connection is made before the arm is straightened and in the 'end' position.

[AngelaG]

mrprecision said:

searcher2 said:

You should aim to make a stance, even if you don't achieve it because of the proximity of the opponent, otherwise you are not intending to go through them, just sting the surface.

Stepping backwards defending a punch for instance changes the maai dramatically depending on the depth of the stance. It changes the ability to strike back.

Why would you step back to defend a punch ..... outside of 5 step that is....