Effective training

[Mr. Precision]

Ok, we've been discussing knowing karate. How about training for real life. You've heard that the one occasion where I needed to use karate, I pulled the punch though it ultimately had the desired effect. There's a chapter on the subject in "Three Second Fighter" so I'm not the only one.

"The first punch I ever threw on the door was pulled on impact and did nothing but cut my opponent's lip." Geoff Thompson.

If you're sparring regularly how are you getting round this? Geoff mentions full contact which is great if you're happy with black eyes, broken noses, teeth and parkinsons 20 years down the line. Is it better not to do it at all?

[Aefibird]

Bags and pads are one such substitute, although they do not completely get around the problem. Even having someone hold a moving bag and punching it with all your might still doesn't really compare with a real life situation of whacking an opponent. Hitting someone in the face is a different feeling and sensation to hitting a pad. Still, it can provide some sort of realistic impact training, without having to resort to a new training partner every 5 mins.

[random]

We talk about ‘real life’ like we are all in fights every second of every Friday night. Unless I have been paid for it I have never had to throw a punch/kick/whatever in anger, I have come close but have always managed to avoid confrontation.

If you want to train for a real fight you have a few of choices. 1, get into a real fight, this could result in you getting 7 shades extracted from your body. 2. Purchase some good quality proper body armour and get on with it. 3. Carry on dreaming about what might have been.

The 3rd one is the best, as no one really knows if what you type is real, except it is not all…

So you and a man who has written a few books and worked on a few doors also pulled his punch…big hook…the ability to cause harm to another is not trained in the dojo but is part of the psyche of an individual, they have it or they do not, although the correct stimulus can create the most surprising response, rather than become a disciple of someone we aspire to (I trained with Geoff in the 80’s [tip top]) one should find ones own path, and walk it with humility and kindness.

We should remember the streets of England or concrete/cement/tarmac (or other road/path making stuff) not a survival course for those who study MA.

[random]

And some of the body armour you can buy can lead to real proper application, ie the red man suit, or something similar, like the body armour they use is the Philippine MA

[Andy]

random said:

So you and a man who has written a few books and worked on a few doors also pulled his punch…big hook…the ability to cause harm to another is not trained in the dojo but is part of the psyche of an individual, they have it or they do not, although the correct stimulus can create the most surprising response, rather than become a disciple of someone we aspire to (I trained with Geoff in the 80’s [tip top]) one should find ones own path, and walk it with humility and kindness.

Good post.
I like a lot of Geoff's material, but he has a tendency to repeat himself, and also to over dramatize things in his work.
As the material is reasonably well written, it is often used/quoted by those who seek to use it out of context, to prove some point or other (just because it has the Geoff Thompson seal of approval on it).

Geoff's experiences are clearly more to do with him as a person, rather than the training he has/may have undertaken, so to quote him as saying (more or less) "How you train, is how you react" kind of lessens the value of what he is trying to get across. (IMHO)

From my own point of view, how I have trained has little resemblance to how I have fought, and MA in general, is over estimated in it's influence 1 on 1.

[Mr. Precision]

random said:

the ability to cause harm to another is not trained in the dojo but is part of the psyche of an individual, they have it or they do not, although the correct stimulus can create the most surprising response

I think you'll find that everyone has the psyche to cause harm to another person. Human history is full of it, ordinary people are quite happy to stone, stab, shoot, beat, gas, electrocute and otherwise harm each other with whichever tools are handy.

I wouldn't say i aspire to Thompson or Abernethy, but they've shown value in something I considered to be almost valueless and against the prevailing wisdom. I respect that.

I have no intention of getting into a fight, or of putting myself in danger. But, shit happens and I like to be prepared.

[Mr. Precision]

andy said:

I like a lot of Geoff's material, but he has a tendency to repeat himself, and also to over dramatize things in his work. As the material is reasonably well written, it is often used/quoted by those who seek to use it out of context, to prove some point or other (just because it has the Geoff Thompson seal of approval on it).

"Muscle memory is a good thing if you train it correctly. If you want it to feed out full contact blows in a real scenario then full contact blows is what you must train for. This is one of the reasons why training semi-contact and full contact a the same time is not always a good thing. The first punch I ever threw on the door was pulled on impact and did nothing but cut my opponent's lip. I thought it was because I didn't have any power in my technique, but when I realised that it was negative muscle memory I changed my training to full contact. Subsequently I was knocking people out in real fights but getting disqualified from every tournament I entered. People thought that I was dropping my contest opponents deliberately, but I wasn't, it was muscle memory."

Enough context?

Random's view is get padded up and do it. Fair enough. Yours is... It doesn't matter how you train?

[AngelaG]

mrprecision said:

random said:

the ability to cause harm to another is not trained in the dojo but is part of the psyche of an individual, they have it or they do not, although the correct stimulus can create the most surprising response

I think you'll find that everyone has the psyche to cause harm to another person. Human history is full of it, ordinary people are quite happy to stone, stab, shoot, beat, gas, electrocute and otherwise harm each other with whichever tools are handy.

I watched a documentary a few months back that actually highlighted the fact that this isn't as true as we think. Apparently only a tiny percentage of soldiers in WW2 were killed by bullets, and a proportion of those were incidental kills. It's the same with firing squads, police shootings etc. they found that the average person is not as willing to risk someone elses life, even if they are being shot at themselves, as we might think.

[random]

Muscle memory is fine. Tiger Woods has excellent muscle memory, every swing is the same, what he has is control. All you have given me, I can only speak for myself, is an example of not being in control, and yes I read this when it was first published. A lot of it is down to interpretation, but, if you can not hit someone first time when it is needed it is down to control, if you conquer this level of control and then find that you continually knock people out in competition, it suggests to me that despite developing good muscle memory, good control has not been developed.

Just because one man says this is the way, it doesn’t mean that it is. One must first learn to read the map. That takes years of training, not 4 ½ years now and again, or a one off visit to a club to offer that as interpretation, learn how to read the mop, then work out a direction to follow. But follow it with compassion integrity, but most of all control. One must be in control of what one is doing; one must be able to switch between training and application in the real world. Personally I never had a problem switching from that which I was paid to do, and that which was part of the art I was following. Control.

I have googled this, and to be honest, all the excuses are surrounded by inadequate mental training, not physical, learn to punch, in whatever manner that takes, learn to kill with that punch, develop good muscle memory, the brain can then throw the punch without actually thinking about it aka Enter the Dragon, it punches by itself. But learn control so that when needs to throw the punch muscle memory kicks in at the same time cognitive control also kicks in, the mind knows when to kill and when to score the point. Control; be in control of the techniques you throw.

And, to pre-empt a reply, add muscle memory and control to any given situation and the result can be quite devastating. Ipon, of KO

[Mr. Precision]

angelag said:

I watched a documentary a few months back that actually highlighted the fact that this isn't as true as we think. Apparently only a tiny percentage of soldiers in WW2 were killed by bullets, and a proportion of those were incidental kills. It's the same with firing squads, police shootings etc. they found that the average person is not as willing to risk someone elses life, even if they are being shot at themselves, as we might think.

There's killing and there's inflicting pain. There's several studies showing that your average person from the street is perfectly willing to electrocute people when told to.

e.g.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3300635.stm

I have no doubt that your common or garden football hooligan or saturday night binger, (who are completely respectable day to day) would happily hospitalise anyone in range, basically for entertainment.

[Mr. Precision]

random said:

I have googled this, and to be honest, all the excuses are surrounded by inadequate mental training, not physical, learn to punch, in whatever manner that takes, learn to kill with that punch, develop good muscle memory, the brain can then throw the punch without actually thinking about it aka Enter the Dragon, it punches by itself. But learn control so that when needs to throw the punch muscle memory kicks in at the same time cognitive control also kicks in, the mind knows when to kill and when to score the point. Control; be in control of the techniques you throw.

OK, sounds good. Back to my original question.


How?

[random]

Isn’t that the question we are all searching for? Personally I take on board the stories and experiences of others, without putting them on a pedestal, and then decide what might be useful for me and discard what is dross.

As for electrocution, I have taken part in this kind of study and although people are ok going along with turning the knob to apply electric current most of the guinea pigs didn’t actually want to kill people, they just did as they were told by others, they abdicated responsibility, if it was their choice they would have stopped, at least read you own links. There is also no defence that being told to do something by an authority figure makes it ok, Nuremberg Trials.

As for hooligans etc. we always seem to jump straight to the worst-case scenario. Yes we have heard stories of respected people masterminding confrontations and even taking part in them, but these people are a minority. As for the drunken yob that is a mild mannered office worker by day but come Saturday Night they live an alcohol fuelled violent existence, are still in a minority. Even though incidents are on the increase they are still the minority. But remove them from their comfort zone, remove the stimulus, and what have you got…a group of people with sad little lives who cannot wait for Saturday so they can get lashed and have a fight. It will not last, it cannot last.