Invent a syllabus

[AngelaG]

If you had free reign and could invent a syllabus (and choose the people who would train with you) what would you do?

Kata: Would you do it? If so what kata would you keep/discard? How would you train it. How would you train/teach the applications/principles behind it?

Kumite: Would you do it? What would your rules be? What are viable targets? What are viable weapons and techniques? How hard would you go?

Kihon: Would you do it? What kihon would you do, and how would you tie it in with everything else?

Would you add/discard any aspects?

Gradings: Would you do them? What would they consist of? How long would they be? Would there be written or oral tests? How long (or how many lessons) would it take to advance, and what (if any) would be your minimum time for gaining a shodan?

Grades: How many grades would you have (if any)?

Anything else you'd like to add to your syllabus...

[Andy]

angelag said:

If you had free reign and could invent a syllabus (and choose the people who would train with you) what would you do?

It would ultimately depend on the needs of the people who were training.

Kata: Would you do it? If so what kata would you keep/discard? How would you train it. How would you train/teach the applications/principles behind it?

It would ultimately depend on the needs of the people who were training.

Kumite: Would you do it? What would your rules be? What are viable targets? What are viable weapons and techniques? How hard would you go?

It would ultimately depend on the needs of the people who were training.

Kihon: Would you do it? What kihon would you do, and how would you tie it in with everything else?

It would ultimately depend on the needs of the people who were training.

Would you add/discard any aspects?

It would ultimately depend on the needs of the people who were training.

Gradings: Would you do them? What would they consist of? How long would they be? Would there be written or oral tests? How long (or how many lessons) would it take to advance, and what (if any) would be your minimum time for gaining a shodan?

It would ultimately depend on the needs of the people who were training.

Grades: How many grades would you have (if any)?

It would ultimately depend on the needs of the people who were training.

Anything else you'd like to add to your syllabus...

It would ultimately depend on the needs of the people who were training.

Sorry Angela.
I'm not trying to blow your post out of the water, but to perhaps head off some of the directions ensuing replies will ultimately take.

You bring up some key issues.
Things Karate, and other associated arts are regularly brought to task on.
This indicates to me, that you perhaps have been brought to doubt aspects of your own practice.

My answer would still be the same though;

"It would ultimately depend on the needs of the people who were training."

Ask yourself; what needs each aspect of your training fulfills.

If you can find no answer, then ask your Instructor.

If he/she has no answer, then you probably have a new question.

[jack]

Angela, they are fair questions, we all have our favourite techniques and thoughts on gradings, I'll have to think more

Andy, I know karate is not a sport but may be considered a hobby or pastime so should have some structure, the aim of football may be to stop or score goals for instance. If my instructor asked me every session "What shall we do today ?" I may always want to do kumite and therefore miss out on some other aspects of karate (I'd also feel a little short changed). So I think perhaps leave karate as it is and take the rough with the smooth. Only my opinion, I do not instruct so am possibly a little selfish.

[AngelaG]

Andy,
Sorry I find your post a little facetious. As I indicated this is a personal decision, therefore the aims of the person training is you. It was an exercise to see if people are 100% happy with their core syllabus, or if there would be changes made – and whether these changes would be slight or sweeping. It’s more of an exercise to get people thinking about what their art involves, and whether they can consider that perhaps a syllabus aimed at a large group of people perhaps lacks something they would like, or has too much of something that holds little relevance to their needs. To be honest I find the sentence “This indicates to me, that you perhaps have been brought to doubt aspects of your own practice.” a little presumptuous of you. At no point have I actually given my opinion yet, I was waiting for the conversation to start before I ploughed in; however my reply might be that I wouldn’t change anything and I am 100% happy with what I do. You have just assumed that because I ask the questions that I am inadvertently expressing some sort of deep dissatisfaction with what I do. Also you say, “I'm not trying to blow your post out of the water, but to perhaps head off some of the directions ensuing replies will ultimately take.” Don’t you think that’s a bit arrogant? People can choose where they want the post to go for themselves, is it really for you to head off the direction before anyone has even had a chance to post?

[AngelaG]

jack said:

Angela, they are fair questions, we all have our favourite techniques and thoughts on gradings, I'll have to think more

Andy, I know karate is not a sport but may be considered a hobby or pastime so should have some structure, the aim of football may be to stop or score goals for instance. If my instructor asked me every session "What shall we do today ?" I may always want to do kumite and therefore miss out on some other aspects of karate (I'd also feel a little short changed). So I think perhaps leave karate as it is and take the rough with the smooth. Only my opinion, I do not instruct so am possibly a little selfish.

Yes but you can be selfish on this thread - this is the kind of thing I mean. If the decision was 100% about doing what you'd like to do. It's purely hypothetical

[random]

My initial response would be to introduce bunkai from the kata for the grade, not just what the student has been shown to but also allow them the opportunity to demonstrate something they have worked out and practiced for themselves. The problem from an examiners point of view is how to mark/grade this aspect, especially once one moves away from what is considered standard bunkai. Also I think it would be something for the higher kyu grades.

[Aefibird]

I'd ditch gradings and belts for a start.

I'd also introduce more bunkai and less 'sport' fighting, especially for earlier 'grades'. Bunkai should start from Day 1 IMO (which in a lot of clubs it does, please don't think I'm dissing anyone or any club here).

I'd also get rid of Heian Godan - bane of my life when I was about 5th/4th kyu. I still have the mental scars from the early practice of that one!!

I'd also enable my (fictional!) students to train in whatever they felt comfortable wearing, be that a gi or tracksuit or shorts or whatever.

Please don't take any of my comments to mean that these things are absent or different in my dojo - I don't find fault with what we do (or else I'd find another place). It's just they're some of the things I'd do as a "selfish" syllabus, for me...

[jack]

Kata:-
I like kata, plenty of scope to exhert yourself and put 100% effort. I know you'll hate me for this, I don't like bunkai much so I'd knock that on the head or at least reduce it.

Kumite:-
All aspects of kumite, from five step right on up to free sparring. More of it.

Kihon:-
Again good, plenty of scope to exhert yourself and put 100% effort.

I think gradings are probably a necessary evil.

Our class does very little "Self defense", locks etc. In my opinion if you want to really learn them and to be proficient it has to be practiced often, but personally I prefer to strike than manipulate.

There are other subtleties that I miss such as tai-sabaki that we don't even touch on.

Let the higher grades mix with the lower grades and be good examples of how it's done.

I accept that other people may like things that I don't, and that classes should cover everything, these are just my favourite bits.

[Andy]

angelag said:

Andy,
Sorry I find your post a little facetious.

I'll look up the big words later to see what they mean. ;D

As I indicated this is a personal decision, therefore the aims of the person training is you.

I'm a little confused though, as you asked;

If you had free reign and could invent a syllabus (and choose the people who would train with you) what would you do?

My answer obviously was

It would ultimately depend on the needs of the people who were training.

It was an exercise to see if people are 100% happy with their core syllabus, or if there would be changes made – and whether these changes would be slight or sweeping. It’s more of an exercise to get people thinking about what their art involves, and whether they can consider that perhaps a syllabus aimed at a large group of people perhaps lacks something they would like, or has too much of something that holds little relevance to their needs.

I don't think people get to realise what their 'core' syllabus is, until they are well advanced in their system?
I can understand you promoting discussion, but the questions I answered with a blanket response really merited it.

To be honest I find the sentence “This indicates to me, that you perhaps have been brought to doubt aspects of your own practice.”

A late night post, otherwise I would usually have finished that sentence with a 'question mark', and that's how I intended it.
I'm also taking into account the context of the last few months, with people you have interacted with etc etc.

a little presumptuous of you. At no point have I actually given my opinion yet, I was waiting for the conversation to start before I ploughed in; however my reply might be that I wouldn’t change anything and I am 100% happy with what I do.

Perhaps.

You have just assumed that because I ask the questions that I am inadvertently expressing some sort of deep dissatisfaction with what I do.

Nope. I'm way too long in the tooth for that.
These things are always easier to discuss over a pint of inferior southern imbibing fluid.

Also you say, “I'm not trying to blow your post out of the water, but to perhaps head off some of the directions ensuing replies will ultimately take.” Don’t you think that’s a bit arrogant?

Arrogant? No
Abrupt? Possibly
Like I was saying, a lot of the points I answered with the same response 'blanket fashion' are ones that regularly dissolve into circular arguements on MA forums, and it always boils down to the individual needs of the practitioner.

People can choose where they want the post to go for themselves, is it really for you to head off the direction before anyone has even had a chance to post?

No it's not. I stand chastised, but I thought (perhaps arrogantly), that we could for once avoid repeating the same old discussion, and move on to a new one.
Apologies to all, I've done these discussions too many times over, and if it's what everyone preferr's, I'll butt out.

[AngelaG]

If you had free reign and could invent a syllabus (and choose the people who would train with you) what would you do?

If you had 100% choice over your training partners then surely THEIR needs would match YOUR needs? After all why would you choose to train with someone that wants to study grappling if you only have interest in striking? The point is that most people will never have the chance to choose their partners; although this in no way expresses any dissatisfaction with the people I train with; but I'm sure that if time/money/outside influences did not come into play then there would possibly be people that we would be happier not training with.

If you were to set up a dojo, dojang, training centre etc. from scratch, initially the syllabus would be driven by one's own personal desires and needs. Later as more people join you may find that the syllabus needs to be adjusted to incorporate the desires/needs/goals of the needs of the group, but that change will come over time and will probably be driven by external factors. However my question assumes a clean slate. The reason I mentioned a training partner at all is that a lot of aspects of a martial arts are very difficult to train if you don't have at least one person to work with.

Like I was saying, a lot of the points I answered with the same response 'blanket fashion' are ones that regularly dissolve into circular arguements on MA forums, and it always boils down to the individual needs of the practitioner.

Yes, exactly... and I am interested in what those individual needs are and how they differ from person to person (and of course where many of the similarities lie).

[Andy]

angelag said:

Yes, exactly... and I am interested in what those individual needs are and how they differ from person to person (and of course where many of the similarities lie).

It's a key question, but really, those that look at any MA style, be it a 27 generation Okinawan system, or Farted from Bruce Lee's baggy pantaloons, as some miraculous cure-all, are IMHO. missing the point.

If you want to learn how to fight, then go out and fight.

Needs change over time, and vary from person to person depending on them, and their circumstances.

Now, you're asking what the requirements of an art are for members of the board, which is more direct and productive to me IMAO.

[Andy]

I'll try again from scratch;

angelag said:

If you had free reign and could invent a syllabus (and choose the people who would train with you) what would you do?

This is something I was considering for real last year, but various events put it on the back burner.
"Syllabus" suggests that you can create a formula that covers all eventualities in a satisfactory manner.
It's just not possible.
Training has to adapt to the individuals needs and their environment to provide value.

Kata: Would you do it? If so what kata would you keep/discard? How would you train it. How would you train/teach the applications/principles behind it?

Yes, I'd at least offer it. I'd certainly offer the Bunkai, but only if there was a need or desire for it.

Kumite: Would you do it? What would your rules be? What are viable targets? What are viable weapons and techniques? How hard would you go?

Yes I'd offer it, but again there would be different levels, appropriate to the needs of the individual. From no contact to no rules.

Kihon: Would you do it? What kihon would you do, and how would you tie it in with everything else?

Depends what you consider Kihon.
I'd say, fitness, common sense, awareness and footwork were all essential Kihon.
Those tie in to everything else by themselves?

Would you add/discard any aspects?

Tricky for me to answer this, because as you know, I'm Non-Karate based.
I'd lose the bare feet, hand on the hip and traditional Gi as well as the grading system and Sensei/student relationship.

Gradings: Would you do them? What would they consist of? How long would they be? Would there be written or oral tests? How long (or how many lessons) would it take to advance, and what (if any) would be your minimum time for gaining a shodan?

No gradings.

Grades: How many grades would you have (if any)?

None

Anything else you'd like to add to your syllabus...

Realistic weapons training from day one, with progressive sparring all the way up to full contact.


After saying all that, actualising it is incredibly difficult.
Although I look at the kids in my area, who hang about all night with nothing to do, and I know I could do something productive with them, I'm stifled.

To hire a local hall, you need to be approved by a governing body.
To get indemnity insurance you need to be approved by a governing body.
To cover all that, you need to charge money, then supplement those charges by selling on 'marked up' equipment.
Pretty soon you're as far from what you wanted to acheive as you can get.
If I could find a way around all the associated hassle, I'd happily teach for nothing.

[jack]

Something I feel I currently dislike, our warm up can sometimes be nearly half the lesson. Although I have no problem with doing sit ups, press ups and so on, I can do them at home, whereas the warm down is missing. What I would prefer is more karate instruction, fine tuning of familiar techniques and learning of new or varied stuff. Anyone else have this problem ?

[Andy]

jack said:

Something I feel I currently dislike, our warm up can sometimes be nearly half the lesson. Although I have no problem with doing sit ups, press ups and so on, I can do them at home, whereas the warm down is missing. What I would prefer is more karate instruction, fine tuning of familiar techniques and learning of new or varied stuff. Anyone else have this problem ?

I can warm up a class thoroughly in three minutes, in fact I can have them puking their guts up in that time.

I appreciate the need for a warmup, but to me, if you're taking MA, your level of fitness is up to you personally, whereas what you pay for, or expect from a class is knowledge/skill acquisition.
Fitness/strength can be better gotten, by running and hitting the gym.
If you're committed, then an MA class might highlight areas you need to develop, but the decision to work on those, is yours, and yours alone.

[AngelaG]

Seventeen minutes is the optimum warm up time (so I've been told). That includes all the stretching etc. Anything above that is purely for exercise purposes, which is fine if that's what you want, but not so good if it cuts into what you're paying money to actually learn.