Self Defence implements

[random]

Supportive Link

Modified link -AG

[random]

www.politics.co.uk/

this is the home page if that other link doesn't work

it is in domestic policy

if you still can't find it I will PM the article

[random]

random said:

Supportive Link

Modified link -AG

Muchas Gracias

[Andy]

May sound primitive, but I'm more of a mind to look after number one, or perhaps more importantly number two, before considering the legal ramifications of this country.

I can't see how you can teach students otherwise with good conscience.

Students don't join MA to learn the law, they seek an edge?

[Aefibird]

and I own a lot of weapons. (although my pepper comes in a grinder)

Well, hit them with the grinder, duh!

Then you'll have Thyme to escape and can call Rosemary (or anyone else you Cayenne [can], although I would refrain from phoning relatives in Oregan-o). If you Cayenne-t escape then grind the Pepper-atrator into the floor until they are shouting for Mace-y. To rub Salt into their wounds you may want to choke them until they Parsley [pass] out, or you could be a wise Sage and just leave them to season for a while.

*ahem*

I'll stop now, shall I?!





Anway, back on topic after that little diversion...
This is the thing - a lot of people are unsure of the legal position of themselves as a martial artists, with or without weapons.

There's still that old chestnut around on the internet that a MAist has to tell their attacker 3 times that they do MA before they can use it.
(yeah, that's a good one - "I do karate!" *punched* "Owww, I do karate" *punched again* "I do, aaaaagh, gurgle gurgle {pass out}" *punch, kick, whack, thump etc etc.)

There's still people believe that the thing about being registered with the police if you're a black belt too.

Although, the law itself (especially in this country as we have a bizarre mix of the ancient, the modern and the downright odd) doesn't always help MAists to fully understand their legal position, it is one that we all could do with knowing.

If you ever do get in a SD situation the last thing you need is the Pepper-atrator (sorry...) sueing you, or getting off because you're a MAist.

[AngelaG]

I'll stop now, shall I?!

YES, please!

[Andy]

aefibird said:

Then you'll have Thyme to escape and can call Rosemary (or anyone else you Cayenne [can], although I would refrain from phoning relatives in Oregan-o). If you Cayenne-t escape then grind the Pepper-atrator into the floor until they are shouting for Mace-y. To rub Salt into their wounds you may want to choke them until they Parsley [pass] out, or you could be a wise Sage and just leave them to season for a while.

Well if you Cinn a mon coming for you, I think you're within your rights to use whatever Cumin to hand.
If Basil had a knife, then why not Turm Eric into it's path rather than be Clove yourself?
At least you'd buy yourself some Thyme.
You never know who's going to be high on Methi, so be smart like the 5 spice girls and.........

Run out of Spice Puns. ;D

[Mr. Precision]

random said:

He then told me to get a very very large mag light, the one that takes about £200.00 of batteries. He showed me how to hold it, in right hand (swap if you are a lefty) with the torch on my shoulder, my right hand was in a good guard position, and, interestingly enough in the same position my escrima teacher told me hold the stick to start with.

So, that's why the police/security guards hold their torches that way then... You learn something new every day.

As to the legality of self defence, worrying about it afterwards is the whole point.

[random]

Worrying about things afterwards is missing the point, firstly I didn’t start the legality argument, but I did provide the finish, except to appear before a JP/Magistrate. IMO I prefer to know where I stand especially when it comes to the letter of the law, or at least trying to spell it out. To be a fully rounded MA is to know the inside out and back to front of what we are doing and that includes what may or may not be legal, personally, I prefer to know what constitutes SD and defending my castle and what becomes a violent assault, otherwise, if we behave indiscriminately then we lower ourselves to the level of the scumbag who tries to steel my DVD player.

There is a big difference between lashing out with my mag light and my driver, one is defensible, and the other is attacking someone with a golf club. For me knowing that I can defend myself empty hand and loaded hand is good, knowing how to defend myself is even better, to quote an earlier post elsewhere, to get medieval will just land one in clink. Control, control, control, and to give a repost to the obvious response…unless an intruder assailant has a gun, as yesterdays news tells all to truthfully…then you may not need to batter someone to death, but just do enough to convince them to desist and await the authorities…although you may need a little cumin, or lemon grass…

Also I can tell some really funny stories about security guards, who rarely have a decent touch about them…but I shall save that for later… ;D

[AngelaG]

I would happier if I knew exactly what legal ramifications I may face. However our legal system does not guarantee a certain response, and so I will have to content myself with finding out WHAT a certain technique may do to a human body. If I am going to perform a technique I'd be happier being aware whether it will give the attacker a headache, or leave their neck hanging off by a thread. I feel this kind of awareness is our responsibility as trained martial artists.

[Mr. Precision]

random said:

Worrying about things afterwards is missing the point,

Worrying about the legality afterwards is only missing the point if you're still around to do so. If you're dead you won't have to worry about it anyway. Worrying about it beforehand is futile, the person attacking you clearly isn't worried about it and if you have the luxury of worrying about whether you'll be prosecuted, that kind of suggests there were other ways out.

With the number of people carrying knives and the like, death is a significant risk. The point about self defence has to be self preservation.

[Andy]

Here's a snippet of a post made by a Manchester Copper on an MA forum;

"Just for the record you CANNOT pick up anything and use it - the circumstances must be such that the use of such an "equaliser" is valid. In other words, the offender themselves must pose a level of threat commesurate with the use of a weapon (e.g. they are armed themselves). Otherwise you might find the "reasonable" aspect hard to prove. The "instant"
defence is only open if the implement you use is currently being carried and is applied without forethought (i.e. autonomous) or carried initially without intent. If you carry a boiled egg with the intent to use it then it is a weapon. If you have time to pick something up, you have time to run

I will never "nick" anyone that doesn't need nicking - despite what the "Sunday Sport" afficianados think. But if you have just wrapped a scaffolding pole around a drunks head when you could have walked away, then yes I might have to ask questions. And I certainly know the law 100% better than your good self Mr. Mancha thank you so very much!

Kubotans are tricky - GENERALLY I would not automatically arrest you UNLESS when I checked you over the airwaves you had any form of conviction. To be honest, as a MA'ist you would have a hard time proving to me it was NOT a weapon, but I would probably offer "advice" about carrying it in future.....if you were nice and polite that is. If you ask me "why aren't you catching REAL criminals" then I might have to book a blue light taxi for you!

[Aefibird]

andy said:

But if you have just wrapped a scaffolding pole around a drunks head when you could have walked away, then yes I might have to ask questions.

I think that that is the point that needs getting home to a lot of MAists. Some think that they're OK to just batter an attacker and call it "self-defence". Certain sections of the MA comunity need reminding that running away is not cowardly and is often a better option. Using MA training should be a last resort.

Angela's point about knowing what a technique does is valid too. If you use a technique and end up seriously injuring or killing an atacker, it's a bit late to say "whoops, I dodn't know that technique did that!".

I was actually talking about this today. I've been on a martial arts course all day and one of the things we did was knife defence. The instructor for that was talking about his time as a doorman and saying that he found he had to modify some techniques he used as they were too OTT for simply chucking out rowdy drunks. One of the points he talked about today was to make sure that the technique and your response fits the situation, not just go in all guns blazing with the most painful moves you know.

[Andy]

aefibird said:

Angela's point about knowing what a technique does is valid too. If you use a technique and end up seriously injuring or killing an atacker, it's a bit late to say "whoops, I didn't know that technique did that

Funny you should mention that. I first came across Angela when I dived into a discussion with an experienced Karateka who didn't see understanding the difference between a blood and an air choke as important, so long as he came out on top. I was shocked and horrified at the same time.
Don't ask me though, ask your GP next time you see them.

I was actually talking about this today. I've been on a martial arts course all day and one of the things we did was knife defence. The instructor for that was talking about his time as a doorman and saying that he found he had to modify some techniques he used as they were too OTT for simply chucking out rowdy drunks. One of the points he talked about today was to make sure that the technique and your response fits the situation, not just go in all guns blazing with the most painful moves you know.

Mixed feelings on this.
A percentage of doormen are MA people, a percentage are just naturally big guys. A percentage are lunatics spoiling for trouble, with the odd sane person slung in the mix for reasons they can't avoid.
It's a good job until it goes bad.
When it goes bad, it can go very bad.

Mr precision might vaguely remember a doorman being stabbed through the heart at 'The Cathouse' in Glasgow a few years back, by an Albanian immigrant.
The EX doorman was lucky to have survived and to subsequently find alternative employment.
I asked him about it, and he said;

"We used to throw people out all the time, and they'd often say they'd come back and "do us" with mates or whatever. This time, they did. I didn't even see it coming."

[Mr. Precision]

random said:

you can clobber then in the act. But only clobber them once.

Mmm. This is what I mean. If I'm attacked in my own home and it gets as far as fighting, I'm not stopping till the other guy has buggered off or isn't moving any more. I'll worry about what the courts think when I get charged.