Kizami-zuki

[jack]

Another question for you guys. How do you do a Kizami-Zuki ? Simple I know but recently I have seen two ways to do it and have confused myself (that's not difficult)
Is it:-

a.) Simply straightening the leading arm, like a jab,

b.) Stepping forward and punching with the leading arm,

or

c.) Can it be either way ?

As far as I was aware it is A, like a jab, sometimes moving the front leg forward to gain some extra distance.
To me, B is Oi-Zuki, but I am always prepared to be wrong.

Different clubs and associations have different methods, this could be one of them.

Jack

[AngelaG]

jack said:

a.) Simply straightening the leading arm, like a jab,

b.) Stepping forward and punching with the leading arm,

or

c.) Can it be either way ?

As far as I was aware it is A, like a jab, sometimes moving the front leg forward to gain some extra distance.
To me, B is Oi-Zuki, but I am always prepared to be wrong.

Different clubs and associations have different methods, this could be one of them.

Jack

I'd have said B is oi-zuki too...

[random]

I have understood that a basic kizami zuki is virtually the same as Oi Zuki but the shoulders rather than being square are turned so the shoulders are in line with the feet (45 degrees I think, I am confusing myself).

Later in life the Kizami zuki becomes a punch with the leading fist as in a jab.

[Aefibird]

I'd say A & B (just to be awkward. )

Stepping forward and punching with the same arm is a kizami-zuki to me, but only if im stepping forward with the leading leg again. i.e. if I have my right leg forward, when I step and punch again it needs to be with r hand and with r leg forwards again. If I step and punch and change sides then it becomes an oi-zuki. that's how I've always seen it and it seems to fit in with what my sensei and others have said.

As random points out (hey, aren't you supposed to be on holiday? Gerrof the net and get on the beach! lol) it depends on the angle of the shoulders too.
Oi-zuki is shoulders & hips square, kizami-zuki is shoulders and hips turned at an angle. (technical terms for "hips open" and hips closed" have momentarily escaped me, sorry!)

[AngelaG]

Yes if you are shifting in then I guess it would still be kizamizuki, and I would imagine that if you step in, and then attempt a kizamizuki it would just look like a poorly performed oizuki. I think the whole point about kizamizuki is that it is a quick jab, and I think stepping in negates that.......

maybe....

[Aefibird]

Yeah, that's what I meant - a quick jab. Didn't actually put that though, I'm having an illiterate day today.

[jack]

I agree with the shuffle step thing, bringing the back foot forward to meet the front and then sliding the front foot forward again whilst jabbing with the front hand, is still Kizami-zuki. I'm not sure about the shoulder thing though. I always thought that if your leading arm is punching, with either Kizami-zuki or Oi-Zuki, shoulders are at 45 and only on gyakazuki do you twist to front facing (this is getting similar to a previous post).

[AngelaG]

jack said:

I agree with the shuffle step thing, bringing the back foot forward to meet the front and then sliding the front foot forward again whilst jabbing with the front hand, is still Kizami-zuki. I'm not sure about the shoulder thing though. I always thought that if your leading arm is punching, with either Kizami-zuki or Oi-Zuki, shoulders are at 45 and only on gyakazuki do you twist to front facing (this is getting similar to a previous post).

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Hips and shoulders square for Oi-zuki!! And Kizamizuke is more about pushing through the knees as well, to gain that extra reach. Think about knees and hips rather than shoulders.

[kenshiro]

aefibird said:

Stepping forward and punching with the same arm is a kizami-zuki to me, but only if im stepping forward with the leading leg again.

Yes, this should be correct.
Also punching with the front leg side arm is generally called jun-zuki, whereas the other side punching (reverse punching) is called gyaku-zuki. Hence, both kizamizuki and oizuki are jun-zuki.

Regarding kizamizuki, I think it is a technique that was considered and produced for free sparring in the modern karate, mixing the thoughts of kenjutsu - Japanese sword technique. You can regard it as a kind of jab but the difference from jab is it must be hard enough so you can knock out the opponent with it. Some people say it is the quickest attack technique in all the martial arts.

As to the degree you face on, there is not a single answer on this. It depends on various situation and there are various techniques. For example of boxing, in-fight boxers tend to be square, whilst out-fight boxers to be half-on. That is similar to the relationship between Naha-te and Shuri-te.

[jack]

I have to say I know nothing about Naha and Shuri-Te, but I have just looked them up on the internet (I still don't know much). As far as the angle of the shoulders, as I said at the begining of this thread "Different clubs and associations have different methods, this could be one of them", and of course I am prepared to be wrong. I have several instructors, I will check with them, I sort of believe that both are correct but perhaps depends on whether we are taught basics or something more practical.

I have never heard of Jun-Zuki so I looked this one up on the internet, see link below.

homepage1.nifty.com/shorinji/gihou/kihon/tips/junduki/engjunduki.htm

I am sure there would be some similar info showing shoulders square. One thing I am sure we would all agree with would be the very last image concerning the back leg.

[miffersy]

Hi,
To execute the technique from Zenkutsu Dachi you must first perform Yuri Ashi(back foot comes forward about 6" or 150mm for those who have gone metric) then whilst pushing the front foot forward by the same amount execute the Oi Tsuki, hence the Jab.

[AngelaG]

aefibird said:

I'd say A & B (just to be awkward. )

Stepping forward and punching with the same arm is a kizami-zuki to me, but only if im stepping forward with the leading leg again. i.e. if I have my right leg forward, when I step and punch again it needs to be with r hand and with r leg forwards again. If I step and punch and change sides then it becomes an oi-zuki. that's how I've always seen it and it seems to fit in with what my sensei and others have said.

As random points out (hey, aren't you supposed to be on holiday? Gerrof the net and get on the beach! lol) it depends on the angle of the shoulders too.
Oi-zuki is shoulders & hips square, kizami-zuki is shoulders and hips turned at an angle. (technical terms for "hips open" and hips closed" have momentarily escaped me, sorry!)

Hips at 45 degrees/hanmi would be open hips.
Hips at square/shomen would be closed hips.

[Aefibird]

Ah! Hanmi and Shomen! Thanks Angela.

I could remember Hanmi, but couldn't remember the term for hips square on.

Shoulda remembered that really.

[jack]

Miffersy, I think you have hit the nail on the head, at least for my Kizami-zuki anyway.

[kenshiro]

This would be a good clip to learn kizamizuki.
www.jkfan.jp/sn_semi_movie/04hirado/N001.wmv

The left person is a former world champion in kumite and the right person is a student.
The student is performing a good typical kizamizuki and Sensei is showing a counter technique with kizamizuki. The student is also doing gyaku-zuki in the later part of the clip.