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Post by Aefibird on Feb 10, 2006 17:14:57 GMT
I've recently been doing a little training at another karate club (long story behind why, although I'm not leaving my own club!). I've noticed that when stepping forward into zenkutsudachi the students (at the club I'm visiting) bring their feet together as they step through from one stance to the other (the halfway point between being in one stance and being in the next). At my "own" club we don't do that - feet/legs travel forwards on a straight line, rather than curving in and out with each step (if you see what I mean).
Sensei has always said to do it like that as moving the feet together when stepping is an unecessary movement and is a waste of energy.
However, the Sensei at this other club says that bringing the feet together as you step forward provides more balance and stability in the halfway/transition point between one stance and the other.
I would have thought that the opposite would have been true - that feet wider apart as you step provide a better/more solid stance than feet brought in together.
However, I'm always open to new ideas and ways of thinking, so is this other Sensei correct?
How do you do the transitions between one stance and another? Bring feet together or not?
BTW, I'm primarily talking about zenkutsudachi (front stance) here, rather than all stances.
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Post by random on Feb 10, 2006 17:38:46 GMT
That is how I was first shown how to move through the stance, and I now having to learn to have the feet apart. It is important if you are bringing the feet together you don’t bob up and down like a chicken. I don’t mind which I do, and probably do both. The reason why the feet came together was as varied as why they star apart. Stability, protection being just two, it was also easier to move into a different stance as they all had this central point (or at least all of them, I think). In front stance it feels more powerful driving the leg forward from the together position, it is probably the same in reality.
I am going to hedge my bets and say they are both right and wrong.
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Post by nkudahc on Feb 10, 2006 18:45:24 GMT
yea i'm not sure either is right or wrong but some of the reasons i've been told that we use the creset step is that the muscles work fast that way, pulling your feet together then pushing them apart that is. and i can definately see what random is saying about thrusting off the back foot from the middle position. also once you reach the middle position its very easy to change directions or stances should you need to, i'm not sure if moving the foot forward in a straight line would facilatate this as easily.
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Post by Shorin Ryu Sensei on Feb 10, 2006 20:52:03 GMT
Our step is a more natural, walking sort of step. We don't zig our feet in, then zag them out again. I've seen that in various systems, but only in kata or one-steps, never in sparring. Another case of teaching one thing, doing another...one of my pet peeves.
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Post by AngelaG on Feb 10, 2006 21:09:37 GMT
We compress and expand, draw the body in and then explode out. One of the bunkai reasons for this is that it enables the knee to drive inside the opponent's thigh. This not only causes pain but also unbalances them. It also means that you protect your own inner leg as you step... The inner leg is a very vulnerable target.
You don't walk with your legs apart in real life so why would you in karate??
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Post by Aefibird on Feb 10, 2006 22:34:36 GMT
You don't walk with your legs apart in real life so why would you in karate?? Sorry, my post didn't fully explain the way my club does it. We don't bring the feet fully together but the knees do come in as you step through into your next stance - the middle position is almost kind of a Hangetsu/Sanchin type stance with the knees in protecting the groin. It's not really a Hangetsu/Sanchin stance, but that's the best way I can think of describing it. As for not walking with your legs apart, well, actually... Your feet aren't touching as you're walking, as they are in some schools of karate when you step through into the next stance. However, nor are they a zillion miles apart. it's just "natural", which seems to me to be a little more like the way we do it when we step into stances. It's more like walking, than a coming-in-and-going-apart sort of movement as some places seem to teach. |
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Post by AngelaG on Feb 10, 2006 22:56:03 GMT
We still do the in and out (compression/expansion).  |
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Post by Aefibird on Feb 10, 2006 23:05:48 GMT
Do your feet actually touch as you do the in-out movement? (sorry, my English skills are limited tonight. I've been kicked around the dojo in training [thanks Sensei! lol] and I've had the best part of a bottle of wine since coming home, so I'm not as coherant as I might otherwise be.  ) |
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Post by random on Feb 10, 2006 23:53:02 GMT
In out in out shake it all about.
LOL
I too have indulged in too much wine, if that is possible.
Actually bringing the feet together is an exaggeration, but look at the way you walk, they are very close, or they should be. It does follow that the stance, especially front becomes an exaggeration of walking. I have been thinking about this tonight, and to be honest (don’t tell Sensei) I still bring the feet close together, the heal seems to drag or at least be floating about, for me. From the transition position I think I can do a lot more by centralising myself than bring the knees in and the feet out. Sorry to everyone who doesn’t train with aefibird and I, you see, (or at least you don’t) Sensei moves with speed and accuracy that can make ones sphincter twitch.
So perhaps, like kata, it isn’t so much what you do but how you do it.
And really it is a bit like the famous English Conductor/Composer said, start in the right place, finish in the right place, the public don’t care what happens in between.
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Post by random on Feb 10, 2006 23:57:56 GMT
;D One of the bunkai reasons for this is that it enables the knee to drive inside the opponent's thigh. This not only causes pain but also unbalances them. It also means that you protect your own inner leg as you step... The inner leg is a very vulnerable target. You don't walk with your legs apart in real life so why would you in karate?? My first instructor used to use this technique as the first in teaching bunkai. The other way the leg seems to crash into the opponent. At least this way as you say, you protect yourself while hurting someone else...and then you get to hit them. If an opponent can't stand they can't fight (quote from cheesy film) |
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paulhe
KR Orange Belt
Posts: 30
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Post by paulhe on Feb 11, 2006 7:55:41 GMT
My take on this is that the knees and thighs come very close together when stepping for two reasons
1) To protect the groin
2) To be able to step inside your opponents inner leg
However, the feet themselves do not meet. The foot should simply travel through the centre of your bodyweight
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Post by nkudahc on Feb 11, 2006 14:30:29 GMT
i was thinking about this a bit more lastnight and while i'm not sure it's a reason why we use the cresent step or just a benefit of it but it seems that this is the exact same motion you would use to get behind someones legs in preperation for a throw....like random was saying if the leg just moves forward you would crash into the opponent instead of getting behind them and giving them something to fall over.
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Post by Aefibird on Feb 11, 2006 21:02:49 GMT
And really it is a bit like the famous English Conductor/Composer said, start in the right place, finish in the right place, the public don’t care what happens in between. I'd forgotten about that quote... a good point well made there. |
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Post by ukshorinryu on Feb 23, 2006 0:19:01 GMT
regarding the kihon of forward stepping in front stance, people do it many different ways, that is for sure, and most of them have reasons that make some sense - however................
For me we are stepping foward to deliver a technique and cover ground, then it needs to be quick and balanced.
I train and teach Shorin Ryu, one of the core principles is shizentai (natural), so anything that isnt natural has no place within the system - outside of a few tanren (core training) excersises, but for combat application it MUST be natural.
We use a system called dynamic stepping and it involves the lifting and placement of feet as opposed to sliding, it is extremly quick and structured - superb for power delivery and recovery.
Regarding the line we take, it is a slight curve towards the inside, almost straight,
our Kihon front stance is higher than the zenkutsu dachi - this is an unnatural movement stance due to its length, width and height, however it has application use for directing force whilst stationary.
Now obviously Shorin Ryu has different emphasised principles to say Shotokan, so im not saying the zenkutsu dachi is wrong, I just use it differently,
Other Shorin Ryus core principles are mobility and combination striking and this isnt achieved by to low or wide a stance - however we all know that stances are but a moment in time........
Look forward to chatting more about this with you all!
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Post by AngelaG on Feb 23, 2006 16:59:23 GMT
Gosh! I just got so confused between ukshorinryu and shorinryu sensei then, especially as you are both using the same avatar. Lol!
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