evolution in MA.

[darkstar]

in line with my promise not to personally pass judgement on anyone's MA's or training any more, ...and in the hope i can maybe start a thread without it being locked down, i'd genuinely like your collective opinion on this... www.sansao.org/english/testimonials/ben.htm

please?

thanks all

[AngelaG]

I find this comment odd:

I realised that Karate as a style practiced tradition and philosophy rather than evolution and practical application.

as Funakoshi actually encouraged evolution of the art of karate.

[darkstar]

angelag said:

I find this comment odd:

I realised that Karate as a style practiced tradition and philosophy rather than evolution and practical application.

as Funakoshi actually encouraged evolution of the art of karate.

did he? ...so are there all different evolutionary strands of shotokan practicing slightly differing versions of kata & techniques due to being modified by individuals as it's transmitted from generation to generation?

serious question, i wouldnt know any different whatever you answer

[smr]

Well, Shotokan itself is an evolution of Karate. The Karate family tree is enormous, and his experience will be totally different from another who practices another style or perhaps even the same style with different teachers. His opinion is not wrong. It just needs to be rephrased. It should read:

I realised that the Karate THAT I HAVE PRACTICED, centers on tradition and philosophy rather than evolution and practical application.

[darkstar]

..so if i became a black belt in shotokan i could add say a couple of ground-fighting kata to my style and remove a block or two in the name of evolution without anybody getting upset too about it?

i'm pretty sure kyokushinkai wouldn't have let me do that.

[AngelaG]

Well Shotokan has some pretty heavyweight orgs behind it. Some which, I admit, would seem to stifle evolution in favour of "tradition". I know that if other shotokan practitioners adapt their training from that approved syllabus then they are looked down on. There is a tremendous amount of snobbery out there. There are still people that think that karate taught by non-Japanese is sub-standard.

As for ground fighting kata, they are already there if you know where to look and think outside of the box. And yeah different dojo may practice different kata.

[smr]

darkstar said:

..so if i became a black belt in shotokan i could add say a couple of ground-fighting kata to my style and remove a block or two in the name of evolution without anybody getting upset too about it?

i'm pretty sure kyokushinkai wouldn't have let me do that.

Some would, some wouldn't. It will vary. There are some strict "traditionalists," who claim that any changes to the style's curriculum are unwelcome and make the art "impure." There are others who are of the "whatever works" mentality. Shotokan is more structured than many styles, so I'd say that it probably would anger more people in that community than say, if I were to add things to my style. I would probably just be asked to make sure that people understand that there is the style, and then there are the things that I've added which aren't a part of the style. I don't think many people would be opposed to me teaching new things, so long as they can be applied with the principles of the style. In fact, Hohan Soken, the founder of Seito Matsumura Shorin-Ryu, is said to have actually required his students to train with other sensei of other styles. SRS could probably verify this for me.

[random]

Opinions vary; personally my journey went the other way, to Shotokan karate, that was when my eyes were opened. Why get hung up on one persons opinion, for it remains just that, their opinion, especially when it is expressed in such a polite manner, there is a plethora of MA to chose from, if on your journey you find the one that ‘suits’ you…bingo, if not keep searching it is out there.

[MasterH]

I really can't add to much to this debate, seeing that I know little about Shotokan. I should study more considering it has had a great influence in modern Taekwondo.

But what I will say is you, I assume it is you, seem to have a well rounded education in the martial arts. I would like to have seen a black belt, or the equivalent, in everything you started. But sometimes you just can't finish what you start. I see some Japanese MA, kick boxing, JKD........but I didn't notice any ground fighting did I miss that?

[jadedragon]

MasterH,
do you mean ground fighting in shotokan or do you mean a ground fighting section for the forum?

As I've continued to read through the various sections of the forum, I've noticed that different poeple that have practiced shotokan in different parts of the world seem to have a different syllabus and a different style of shotokan.

In my experience so far with shotokan, we integrate a lot of ground fighting and grappling as well as various other martial arts such as san suu, kenpo, and jujitsu and others.... I cannot say much for kata because I have'nt made it past heian nidan yet. So far I have noticed that my style of shotokan is mixed rather than traditional. It also depends on the sensei and there philosophy.

[darkstar]

masterh said:

I really can't add to much to this debate, seeing that I know little about Shotokan. I should study more considering it has had a great influence in modern Taekwondo.

But what I will say is you, I assume it is you, seem to have a well rounded education in the martial arts. I would like to have seen a black belt, or the equivalent, in everything you started. But sometimes you just can't finish what you start. I see some Japanese MA, kick boxing, JKD........but I didn't notice any ground fighting did I miss that?

to whom are you addressing this post MasterH? that guy def isnt me

personally i have no concern or interest with belts whatsoever, never have had, ever since as a blue belt (first grading, just didnt like white) i could whup most of my class and give as good as i was getting from brown & black belts way back in my kyokushin days.

they signify the amount of time you've stuck at something, but IMO that's all they really mean.

[MasterH]

No, I just meant in regards to this thread. Also when I say "Black Belt" I mean to finish the basics, nothing else.

Sorry for such a late response, I've been on my back for the last few days with some type of bug, a bad one.

[darkstar]

hey, so, i've worked out a new kata (for PMT SB) incorporating the basics from groundfighting, going through guard, mount, passing guard, ground & pound, eye gouging etc etc. it's a one man drill and will take about a year to perfect.

if anyone would like to learn this invaluable tool to add to your training PM me and we can arrange a seminar for a very reasonable cost.

[rikimaru]

Criticising karate for not having groundfighting is rather silly. It's like criticising boxing for not haveing kicks.

You shouldn't have to "look" for grappling techniques in Karate. Just stick to what is obvious and if you want to do grappling aswell, then join a BJJ gym and learn the ultimate art of guard pulling.

[darkstar]

i'm not criticising it, i'm bettering it.

..if you're not growing youre dying.

remember that.