Competitions

[Andy]

angelag said:

Right, my £0.02.

I do think that some of the non-contact/semi-contact stuff teaches bad habits, if taken in isolation.

For me Angela, you need to give a reason for that conclusion.
It's not true for me, and it's not true for any of the hundreds of people I've trained with over tha last twenty years or so.
So seriously, lets lose the stock answers and pigeon coop thinking and look at this seriously.
Like I keep banging on about, you can't generalise about people.
Semi Contact/sporting MA are just that.
A sport, a game.
Now soccer, rugby badminton or whatever don't train you to fight, nor is that their intended purpose.
Same thing.
What they do have, is positive by-products, already mentioned by myself, like fitness, observation/adaptation etc.

The important part of your statement to me is;

if taken in isolation

Now what does that mean exactly?
If all that differentiates between YOU and someone who does sport MA, is that they put extra time, in addition to the training time YOU spend on that, then where's the foul?
If THEY spend less time on other pursuits, that YOU practice, as a result of a desire to ACHEIVE in SPORT, then they might reasonably be expected to be less developed in those areas, but is that the case?
To me, the best sporting exponents are usually the best at everything, be it Kata, Bunkai or whatever.

If you don't ever make contact how do you know that you are hitting properly?

Via means of training that are designed for that purpose; i.e. NOT Semi Contact.

As you know, if you hit a heavy bag wrong it really hurts, and can in fact lead to broken bones. Teaching to punch at over extention, to use a hikite hand when not required, to bounce techniques, disregarding the point of stances etc. can lead on to bad habits if not corrected elsewhere.

Yup, but it doesn't matter how many times it's explained to you, you usually only learn when you make the mistake for yourself.

Take Olympic TKD as an example. The fighters often bounce around with their arms hanging around them and no guard to be seen. The reason being that hand techniques don't tend to score so all the concentration is put into the legs.

Sure, so in the back of these Olympiads minds, do you think they're imagining themselves on the streets, kicking gang members off their motorbikes?
Of course not.
They're playing a game to the best of their ability, and if that game doesn't require a guard, and a guard may even be detrimental to the game, then guess what;
They do what they have to within the confines of the rules.
Why does anyone in their right mind think that somehow equates to what they'd do if they were jumped by a bunch of Korean Chavs outside the back entrance to the Olympic Stadium?

However a good guard does require some training, so if they haven't trained it then they are no better than your average guy on the street, except that maybe they have inflated sense of security?!

Question mark noted.
Guards, stances and all kinds of pretty things may or may not appear momentarily in a real life confrontation.
Instinctual things can happen, and this discussion really boils down to what influence MA training of any description can have on instinct.

For me, it's actually very little.
To me, you're either a survivor or you're not.
If you live in some kind of delusional world, where a certificate or a belt somehow equates to some factor in an equation of how you would fare in some hypothetical life threatening situation, you need your head examined.
These things just aren't quantifiable.

However, as with anything though, these things aren't often trained in isolation. People that dismiss kata dismiss it because they have only ever taken the performance into account, whereas a good dojo will take the performace as one small part of the whole.

For me, pursuit of anything is a worthwhile goal in itself.
I don't dismiss anything.
I take it all on board, because I never know when I might need it later.

[AngelaG]

andy said:

For me Angela, you need to give a reason for that conclusion.

I'm not sure I do HAVE to give a reason as I've already said that it's just my opinion, and some of the stuff I wrote after was a back up of why I think that way. However the only real backup I have is knowing of people that have pulled of kumite type stuff in a fight. However as soon as I pass it on to you it becomes hearsay again. This is the problem with recounting stories.

andy said:

It's not true for me, and it's not true for any of the hundreds of people I've trained with over tha last twenty years or so.

So seriously, lets lose the stock answers and pigeon coop thinking and look at this seriously.
Like I keep banging on about, you can't generalise about people.
Semi Contact/sporting MA are just that.
A sport, a game.
Now soccer, rugby badminton or whatever don't train you to fight, nor is that their intended purpose.
Same thing.
What they do have, is positive by-products, already mentioned by myself, like fitness, observation/adaptation etc.

It's not the stock answers. The last thing I am is some kind of mindless drone endlessly parroting what's passed on to me by my sensei, and I kind of resent the implication that I am not intellectual enough to be thinking for myself.

As I've said before I do think that sports kumite gives some benefit, but I wonder if it takes more than it gives. Also if sports kumite gives nothing more than your average game of badminton then clubs that push the competition side should really not be selling themselves as self-defence, in the same way as your local badminton club does not claim to help self-defence skills.

andy said:

The important part of your statement to me is;
Now what does that mean exactly?
If all that differentiates between YOU and someone who does sport MA, is that they put extra time, in addition to the training time YOU spend on that, then where's the foul?
If THEY spend less time on other pursuits, that YOU practice, as a result of a desire to ACHEIVE in SPORT, then they might reasonably be expected to be less developed in those areas, but is that the case?
To me, the best sporting exponents are usually the best at everything, be it Kata, Bunkai or whatever.

I don't agree. I think you'll find that most sporting clubs drop the bunkai aspect apart from the occasional panacea to the people demanding the self-defence stuff the club promised when they joined. Most clubs train once or twice a week, I'm in the dojo 6 days a week - are you really telling me that in those 1 or 2 lessons the people doing sports karate are training as much in the bunkai/oyo side as I am? Pshaw!

(By bunkai I don't mean the fancy schmancy stuff you see at the Championships etc. I mean relevant to a real life attack)

andy said:

Via means of training that are designed for that purpose; i.e. NOT Semi Contact.

And yet many clubs don't ever do that. GKR and Matt Fiddes promise NO contact. This is where you put your own training practices on everyone else. Perhaps it's you making the generalisations?

andy said:

Yup, but it doesn't matter how many times it's explained to you, you usually only learn when you make the mistake for yourself.

Yep, and therefore many people will NEVER find out for themselves as they will NEVER hit a heavy bag. Sorry but go onto a large karate forum like KU and there are people on there that have never made contact with anything in all their days of training.

andy said:

Sure, so in the back of these Olympiads minds, do you think they're imagining themselves on the streets, kicking gang members off their motorbikes?
Of course not.
They're playing a game to the best of their ability, and if that game doesn't require a guard, and a guard may even be detrimental to the game, then guess what;
They do what they have to within the confines of the rules.
Why does anyone in their right mind think that somehow equates to what they'd do if they were jumped by a bunch of Korean Chavs outside the back entrance to the Olympic Stadium?

Because we've all seen clubs promoting Olympic TKD also banging on aout the benefits of their self-defence training, which is somewhat misleading. I have no problems with Sport MA as long as they realise that it's sports MA and do not promote themselves as something completely different. Selling yourself as teaching the customer how to fight is a lie, and could one day get the customer seriously injured.

andy said:

Question mark noted.
Guards, stances and all kinds of pretty things may or may not appear momentarily in a real life confrontation.
Instinctual things can happen, and this discussion really boils down to what influence MA training of any description can have on instinct.

For me, it's actually very little.
To me, you're either a survivor or you're not.
If you live in some kind of delusional world, where a certificate or a belt somehow equates to some factor in an equation of how you would fare in some hypothetical life threatening situation, you need your head examined.
These things just aren't quantifiable.

Again you speak from your own experience and expect me to agree with it for my own experience. Personally I do think that my karate training has helped me, even if only to make me so much more aware of my surroundings. This is nothing to do with certificates or belts this is to do with ploughing a large chunk of my life into training myself. No I've not convinced myself I am some sort of super-human now, but I think thereg are nevertheless significant improvements from my initial starting point. Because my initial starting point was probably be quite low I'm still not going to be some ace kind of street fighter, but that's okay because I never wanted to be.

Quite simple... if you sell self defence then you have to teach self-defence.

andy said:

For me, pursuit of anything is a worthwhile goal in itself.
I don't dismiss anything.
I take it all on board, because I never know when I might need it later.

For you. Not for Paul or me, we have to find our own paths, and they are not necessarily wrong, they're just different to yours.

[Andy]

I'm not sure I do HAVE to give a reason as I've already said that it's just my opinion, and some of the stuff I wrote after was a back up of why I think that way.

You misunderstand me.
The word I used was “need”, and I wasn’t referring to you specifically, more to people in general.

However the only real backup I have is knowing of people that have pulled of kumite type stuff in a fight. However as soon as I pass it on to you it becomes hearsay again. This is the problem with recounting stories.

I’ll be covering this a bit later in the post.

It's not the stock answers. The last thing I am is some kind of mindless drone endlessly parroting what's passed on to me by my sensei, and I kind of resent the implication that I am not intellectual enough to be thinking for myself.

Good, then we can have a discussion.

As I've said before I do think that sports kumite gives some benefit, but I wonder if it takes more than it gives.

.
Well I read that as the original intention of this thread, specifically the question asking if it creates bad habits.

Also if sports kumite gives nothing more than your average game of badminton then clubs that push the competition side should really not be selling themselves as self-defence, in the same way as your local badminton club does not claim to help self-defence skills.

Aha, now we’re getting somewhere.
We’re hovering about the whole Mcdojo issue.
The way I look at it, it’s about the 80:20 rule.
80% (and that’s probably being kind) of Martial Arts practiced are utter irrelevant garbage.
80% of people practicing some form of MA are in it for the shits n giggles.
80% of people practicing some form of MA couldn’t, fight their way out of a paper bag.
Which is worse though; someone advertising Self Defence who doesn’t offer it, or someone who thinks they offer it?
After all, if you’re teaching it, you should be able to illustrate in some way that you can DO it.
Anything else is just theorizing.

“clubs that push the competition side should really not be selling themselves as self-defence”
TKD would be the obvious offender here I think, but I can’t say it bothers me a great deal, as it’s simply Marketing, and they do that very well (buyer beware and all that).
The smart move is looking for the 20% of the 20% of the 20%, and then you might, just might be getting somewhere.

I don't agree. I think you'll find that most sporting clubs drop the bunkai aspect apart from the occasional panacea to the people demanding the self-defence stuff the club promised when they joined.

It’s that percentile thing again, which is why I refer to generalizations.
Yes, that’s true of 80% of them, but babies and bathwater eh?
The way it worked for me, anyone doing point fighting took it as a separate class on TOP of everything else, which added up to four hours a night, 6 till 10.

Most clubs train once or twice a week, I'm in the dojo 6 days a week - are you really telling me that in those 1 or 2 lessons the people doing sports karate are training as much in the bunkai/oyo side as I am? Pshaw!

See above.
Some are, some aren’t and some may be doing more.

(By bunkai I don't mean the fancy schmancy stuff you see at the Championships etc. I mean relevant to a real life attack)

Noted.

And yet many clubs don't ever do that. GKR and Matt Fiddes promise NO contact. This is where you put your own training practices on everyone else. Perhaps it's you making the generalisations?

Here’s an interesting aside for you.
There’s an organization based in Scotland called Tukido, headed up by a guy called Hok Aun The.
Now they have two forms of sparring.
No contact, and Full contact (nothing in between.
Funnily enough, it span out of TKD in the early 80’s, yet it was a very different variety of TKD to what everyone visualizes these days.
I was pissing blood for a couple of days after sparring one of them.

What I’m saying is, by generalizing and only focusing on the negatives, you (the royal you, not the personal you) kind of brand and pigeon hole a lot of people (some of that 20%) unfairly.
To say someone can’t fight, because they do point tournament is to me misleading at best, and if you said that to the kind of people I’m thinking of, they’d be inclined to let you prove it for yourself.

Yep, and therefore many people will NEVER find out for themselves as they will NEVER hit a heavy bag. Sorry but go onto a large karate forum like KU and there are people on there that have never made contact with anything in all their days of training.

Yup, part of that 80% I was talking about.

Because we've all seen clubs promoting Olympic TKD also banging on about the benefits of their self-defence training, which is somewhat misleading.

In this age of commercial enterprise, I’m afraid you just have to live with it.

I have no problems with Sport MA as long as they realise that it's sports MA and do not promote themselves as something completely different. Selling yourself as teaching the customer how to fight is a lie, and could one day get the customer seriously injured.

Strong words, echoed by many across the internet, but it’s always a case of ”not in MY Dojo”.

Again you speak from your own experience and expect me to agree with it for my own experience.

Yes I do, but no I don’t.

Personally I do think that my karate training has helped me, even if only to make me so much more aware of my surroundings.

Yes, one of those by products of MA training I mentioned earlier, of which there are many.

This is nothing to do with certificates or belts this is to do with ploughing a large chunk of my life into training myself.

Sure, that’s YOU talking about YOUR experience there.
For the 80%, there’s a ludicrous attachement to belts and certificates, which is very much a western mentality.
The idea of buying knowledge, and that once you’ve bought it, it damn well better do what it said on the tin.
I think I’m perhaps a little jaded and jilted on that score.
It was always about the skills and knowledge for me, rather than the physical manifestations so many seem to covet

No I've not convinced myself I am some sort of super-human now, but I think there are nevertheless significant improvements from my initial starting point.

I wasn’t suggesting that you had, but can you see how unquantified those improvements you mention are?

Because my initial starting point was probably be quite low I'm still not going to be some ace kind of street fighter, but that's okay because I never wanted to be.

To me, that’s an aware and realistic self observation.

For you. Not for Paul or me, we have to find our own paths, and they are not necessarily wrong, they're just different to yours.

I doubt that, but I do think you’re setting out your stall a little early.
Yes, everyone’s path is their own, so how could you know what mine is?

What I was talking about, is a mindset that is found amongst some of the best MA people out there. Dan Inosanto would be an example of it.
I think Paul mentioned it in one form earlier, and the quote originates with Bob Redmond I believe, relating to having an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.
Bruce is usually credited with the ‘Absorb what is useful, discard what is clearly old pants’ thang.
I’ve found, and continue to find that the importance of things changes over time, and things I once considered useless and/or irrelevant can only have meaning when I place them in the context of individual development, so I tend not to dismiss anything out of hand, focusing what arts are, rather than what they are not.

Edited by KR admin

[AngelaG]

The strange thing is Andy, despite all the quotes and counter quotes, we are actually not in disagreement. The only difference is the way we chose to approach it. We both agree that a large proportions of clubs teach crap, and whilst, judging from your posts, you would prefer to concentrate on the minority that don't, I instead concentrate on the majority that do.

For me the fact that the majority are being mis-sold something, and may actually endanger their lives because of those lies, is the big problem.

[Andy]

angelag said:

The strange thing is Andy, despite all the quotes and counter quotes, we are actually not in disagreement. The only difference is the way we chose to approach it. We both agree that a large proportions of clubs teach crap, and whilst, judging from your posts, you would prefer to concentrate on the minority that don't, I instead concentrate on the majority that do.

For me the fact that the majority are being mis-sold something, and may actually endanger their lives because of those lies, is the big problem.

But that's not the thread topic Angela.

[AngelaG]

andy said:

angelag said:

The strange thing is Andy, despite all the quotes and counter quotes, we are actually not in disagreement. The only difference is the way we chose to approach it. We both agree that a large proportions of clubs teach crap, and whilst, judging from your posts, you would prefer to concentrate on the minority that don't, I instead concentrate on the majority that do.

For me the fact that the majority are being mis-sold something, and may actually endanger their lives because of those lies, is the big problem.

But that's not the thread topic Angela.

Yes it is.

The question as to whether kumite can breed bad habits etc. Well yes it can be if the club is purely concentrated on sports kumite and there is nothing else to balance it out. Yin and Yang.

My OP was:

Do karate competitions, by their rules, encourage bad body dynamics and bad habit forming, especially when then applying the same training to a real self-defence situation?

Sports kumite encourages bad practice when applied to self-defence. It doesn't encourage bad dyanamics or bad habits for kumite, but in more general purposes I do believe that they can cause problems, and not enough clubs out there are distinguishing between the two. (IMO etc) Selling sports kumite as self-defence is the main problem. But it seems to me that some clubs just don't want to apportion any time to more realistic practices as this does not bring home the bling.

If the club IS pure sports karate and they are honest about it I have no problems, and best of luck to them with their latest trophy campaign; it's the misleading that is wrong.

[Andy]

angelag said:

andy said:

But that's not the thread topic Angela.

Yes it is.

The question as to whether kumite can breed bad habits etc. Well yes it can be if the club is purely concentrated on sports kumite and there is nothing else to balance it out. Yin and Yang.

No, it doesn't.
Habits, bred or otherwise by kumite have nowthing to do with self defence, and never were intended for that purpose.
What you've switched on to now, is the overall self defence teaching ability of a dojo in general

Sports kumite encourages bad practice when applied to self-defence.

Hpw does it do that exactly?
If it's so effective in doing so, then surely it stands to reason that there must be an equally more useful way of spending training time.
One that nets obvious, tangible results?
What's that then?

Edited by KR admin

[AngelaG]

andy said:

No, it doesn't.
Habits, bred or otherwise by kumite have nowthing to do with self defence, and never were intended for that purpose.
What you've switched on to now, is the overall self defence teaching ability of a dojo in general

No I haven't. You have just failed to see my point.

Again see my original post:

Do karate competitions, by their rules, encourage bad body dynamics and bad habit forming, especially when then applying the same training to a real self-defence situation?

andy said:

Hpw does it do that exactly?
If it's so effective in doing so, then surely it stands to reason that there must be an equally more useful way of spending training time.
One that nets obvious, tangible results?
What's that then?

Again, you have totally missed my point. If you want to train self defence then you need to train from realistic attacks, you need to make sure you can hit, lock (or whatever your chosen defence is). You don't train sports kumite and then at the end say "Yeah, that's good for self-defence as well, so off you trot"

andy said:

I think this is really a problem of your own making.

Eh?

The fact that so many clubs mislead their students is a problem of my making?

I'm afraid you are not actually making much sense to me.

Sports karate is sports karate, self-defence is self-defence there should be some sort of separation of the two. After the student realises the difference THEN the instructor can point out which benefits bridge the divide.

DISCLAIMER:
N.B. I am aware that a small minority of clubs may well do more relevant sparring.

[Andy]

angelag said:

andy said:

No, it doesn't.
Habits, bred or otherwise by kumite have nowthing to do with self defence, and never were intended for that purpose.
What you've switched on to now, is the overall self defence teaching ability of a dojo in general

No I haven't. You have just failed to see my point.

Again see my original post:

My reading and comprehension skills are just fine thanks.
I simply disagree with you.
Hope that's ok.

Again, you have totally missed my point. If you want to train self defence then you need to train from realistic attacks, you need to make sure you can hit, lock (or whatever your chosen defence is). You don't train sports kumite and then at the end say Yeah, that's good for self-defence as well, so off you trot

Don't recall anyone saying that, but that's true.
So who's saying that?

andy said:

I think this is really a problem of your own making.
Eh?

The fact that so many clubs mislead their students is a problem of my making?

No.
You started a thread, asking if Point/kumite encouraged bad habits.
What you actually seem to be doing is making the statement that it does, yet fail to go on to explain why.
As the only person who might have a foot in both camps on the thread, anything I write that is truly relevant seems to be ignored, while anything that might conform to your pre-conceived ideas is taken up.
If you take on board the idea that 80% of MA is crap (not sure if anyone is actually reading what I've written), then yes, non ideal situations will occur.
I was observing that this comes across as a personal hang-up of yours.
Now I've been there in the past, and moved on, so I hope you can take the time to look back at what's been said.

Sports karate is sports karate, self-defence is self-defence there should be some sort of separation of the two. After the student realises the difference THEN the instructor can point out which benefits bridge the divide.

There's only one division, and that's "Robin" (the individual).
Robin decides, Robin evaluates, Robin learns and Robin won't get much advice from a Bow or Arrow.

DISCLAIMER:
N.B. I am aware that a small minority of clubs may well do more relevant sparring.

20% maybe?

Edited by KR admin

[AngelaG]

andy said:

My reading and comprehension skills are just fine thanks.
I simply disagree with you.
Hope that's ok.

How can you disagree with me? I have yet to see you actually write anything relevant to my post!

Don't recall anyone saying that, but that's true.
So who's saying that?

That's an explanation to TRY to get you to see what I meant in my OP and following arguments. You either want people to back up their debate with explanations or you don't. It's make your mind up time.

andy said:

No.
You started a thread, asking if Point/kumite encouraged bad habits.
What you actually seem to be doing is making the statement that it does, yet fail to go on to explain why.

Funny that, because I've read loads of explantions why people *think* why. You want cut and dried evidence? Well life ain't that obliging. This comes back to the fact that people will respond in different ways, and instead we can talk in minorities and majorities. By the way I have yet to see you explain why it doesn't, other than some kind of chat about a TKD tournament in which you took advantage of a loophole in the rules in order to gain a victory. Pretty hollow victory in my estimation.

andy said:

anything I write that is truly relevant seems to be ignored, while anything that might conform to your pre-conceived ideas is taken up.

I don't have pre-conceived ideas, I just gave my opinions, back up by my experiences. People HAVE used kumite techniques (such as pulling punches) in real fights. In the same way as my friend who trained in another club which was allowed to use elbows in their kumite still occasionally brings an elbow around in our kumite, after nearly 3 years or training with us. It's rare these days but 20+ years of doing something else is ingrained on his memory,.

andy said:

I was observing that this comes across as a personal hang-up of yours.

LOL!!!! How on earth do you leap to that conclusion. I'm only pushing the point because of your blind obstinance to admit that there's anything wrong with no-contact kumite, when you've already agreed that a large majority of people teach this stuff in such a crap way that people cannot ever compartmentalise the sports and the self-defence aspects in their heads.

andy said:

There's only one division, and that's "Robin" (the individual).
Robin decides, Robin evaluates, Robin learns and Robin won't get much advice from a Bow or Arrow.

And a large majority of Robins are learning bad habits for when they leave the archery contest and actually need to go hunting.

andy said:

DISCLAIMER:
N.B. I am aware that a small minority of clubs may well do more relevant sparring.

20% maybe?

If you are going to use set numbers then please back up your claims with evidence. Otherwise people may just think it's a random number plucked out of thin air, which kind of invalidates your argument

Edited by KR Admin

[Andy]

Personal attacks removed - KR Admin

[whitewarlock]

Hmm...

Well, i'll say this. Andy, many of your earlier posts... in other threads, were worth reading. My issue here is that i find it exceedingly annoying how you present a multitude of quotes and then toss out short quips in response to those quotes. Moreso, i find it annoying that others follow suit and then this entire thread turns into a spitting contest, rather than a viable discussion on the points of merit. It makes this entire thread exceedingly difficult to read, and altogether not satisfying. Please consider, in the future, that others need to read and comprehend what is being posted... and thus post, not as if you are satisfying yourself, but as if you are speaking to an audience... and thus wish to be heard.

To everyone: The means to maintain a civil and productive discussion is to ensure you are discussing the topic with an open mind, and are not merely attempting to thrust your opinions down someone else's throat. After all, what's the point of discussing something, if you are unwilling to learn from the discussion, or teach with the discussion? And this last point is that people are less willing to learn from your input, if your input is tainted by sarcasm, denigration, or infers a degree of stubborness on your part.

Now, to the topic at hand. Many people have provided viable arguments. The problem is, these arguments are hard to find in the quagmire of hostilities presented. Nonetheless, i'll toss out my thoughts and maybe either this topic can be locked, with a new one started that is amenable to respectful discussion, or my post could incite a revolution in 'how to post so as to inspire productive discussion.' <yeah right, hehe>

Competitions have rules. These rules are what teach people when to fight, how to fight, how to hit, where to hit. Problem is, these rules are applicable to the particular competition, and are not applicable to a life-threatening encounter, where no preset rules exist.

Rules function as limiters. Their purpose is to decrease the likelihood of injury, or to direct a competition to focus on particular 'types' of combat. These rules 'restrict' the competitors and teach them to fight under a very limited set of circumstances. This is not the case of street, where the 'environment' and the 'circumstances' of a particular incident determine the 'rules' you are presented. I.e., if the floor is wet... some types of attacks are simply a bad idea, and thus you 'create' rules to ensure you increase the likelihood of success.

And this is the next part. Competition rules are created by others. They are rules set forth that you must adhere to, lest you be disqualified. These rules are not even remotely similar to the rules you must set for yourself in a real encounter, and thus they do not teach people how to set their own rules. They merely provide obstacles to learning, with the intent of refining their skillsets in a 'test tube.'

"Tie one hand behind your back, close one eye, and then hit this little tiny ball floating on a rope, two feet away. Go ahead, study this and when you become proficient at it, you will have become a master. Learn... learn and apply this knowledge to a real fight." - SomeDumbGuy

The martial arts is about developing yourself so that you are able to decrease the windows of opportunity that predators will attempt to exploit. However, competitions remove these windows of opportunity altogether, so that you go right into 'prepared' confrontation. Instead of developing how not to get into a confrontation, or developing how to react to someone attempting to exploit one of these windows, you merely develop the skills necessary to deal with a particular type of attack... under a given set of rules.

The problems with this are plenty. First, we have the issue of surprise. Surprise in a competition is completely removed, and thus so is the #1 means to obtain victory. If someone attacks you on the street, it will invariably be via the action of surprise. If, on the other hand, you develop yourself so as to be able to 'reverse' the surprise, and in turn surprise them... with one means being that of 'looking' unready, but in actuality being full-ready and thus reacting with immediate brutality, or even acting before the other acts... victory is increased substantially. Moreso, the skills you've obtained through competition won't even get the opportunity to be applied.

Another aspect is that rules set limiters. I indicated this earlier, but allow me to expound upon this. Rules can teach 'bad habits,' such as pulling punches... stophitting, striking only certain targets, taking turns (sparring, as opposed to overwhelming), not utilizing 'every' opportunity presented because doing so would disqualify you, not following through after a decisive strike, etc. Rules, if you study them indepth, can be just as disabling as having no skills whatsoever. They can leave you open for committing counterproductive actions, or failing to commit actions needed to ensure survival. Competitions have judges, referees, people to stop the fight when it reaches a certain point. The streets do not provide such luxuries, so you can't just do a sacrifice throw and say, "ah well, it was worth a try."

[whitewarlock]

Wow, my reputation sucks, eh?

[AngelaG]

Cheers WW. Thanks for dragging the thread on topic. A great post (as always), very nicely thought out an articulated. I'm now going to do some major surgery on this thread to try and keep it all a lot more pertinent and get rid of the personal stuff

[pasmith]

Well that little exchange certainly brightened up my Monday morning.
Thanks guys.

I don't really give a monkey's what competitions people do or how they spar. I see MA as a totally personal journey and will always train the way I want to, when I want to. What other people do is by the by.

What I do feel passionate about is miss-information given to beginners. Beginners don't have the experience or knowledge to know about or understand if what they are doing is relevent or what they really want.
I spent 6 years doing TKD before I realised that it wasn't what I needed for SD nor what I got into MA to find.
Now according to Andy that would all be down to me as an individual. My fault that the TKD I went to didn't offer valid SD skills or training (which is what I wanted from MA).
I don't like this way of putting all the onus on the individual. Training is a "contract" between the instructor, the style and the practitioner. Only by working together will the practitioner get what they want.

Sorry off topic that.

Angela...why do you have such a negative view of "sparring" or kumite?

Personally I feel that people that do well in free sparring (provided that that sparring is robust and allows fighting in the clinch and on the floor) also do well in scenario training, pressure testing and other forms of...erm..."sparring" or combat.