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Post by AngelaG on Mar 12, 2006 12:23:01 GMT
Do karate competitions, by their rules, encourage bad body dynamics and bad habit forming, especially when then applying the same training to a real self-defence situation?
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Post by Shorin Ryu Sensei on Mar 12, 2006 16:17:11 GMT
Do karate competitions, by their rules, encourage bad body dynamics and bad habit forming, especially when then applying the same training to a real self-defence situation? Oh...absolutely! I know of at least a dozen instances where a good "point" fighter got their butt's handed to them in a real fight, including a 17 year old, 6'2" young man that was the #1 top rated black belt heavy weight sparring champ in the NorthWest US that got beat badly by another kid with one year of boxing after school one day. BTW, that kid quit the martial arts immediately after that happened. |
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Post by Andy on Mar 12, 2006 19:12:17 GMT
For the sake of discussion, I'll disagree.
Because you bow to your opponent before a bout, would that make you bow before defending yourself?
To me it's down to how you think about things.
If you THINK you are able to handle yourself because you won some Kumite, you're an idiot.
If you THINK you are able to handle yourself because of any other form of training, you're an idiot.
To KNOW is the thing, and you only get that when you pass the practical exam.
You'll then find out what's relevant in your training, and what isn't, and it's never THAT SIMPLE.
For some people possibly.
Those unable to distinguish between sport and real life I guess.
The two things have always been seperate for me.
On the other hand, top points fighter Alfie Lewis killed a guy in the street with a kick to the head.
Not that anyone would approve, but a lot of the local Karate boys did doorwork, and some were known to deliberately get into fights to test their mettle.
They also did tournaments.
The point in point to me, is to work to the degree that you develop control.
So if you can touch someone at full speed, get the point and not hurt them, what's to stop you from changing the depth and mechanics of technique to acheive a different level of force?
I appreciate that's an oversimplification.
If any of you watch K1 btw, look out for a fighter called Pele Reid.
He started out as a point fighter, and when he'd won all there was to win, he turned pro heavyweight boxer before going into K1.
Pele is about 6'7" and built like a brick outhouse.
Please try and tell me how he's picked up all these bad habits from point fighting and would get a doing on the street. ;D
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Post by subzero72 on Mar 13, 2006 6:45:21 GMT
For the sake of discussion, I'll disagree. Because you bow to your opponent before a bout, would that make you bow before defending yourself? To me it's down to how you think about things. If you THINK you are able to handle yourself because you won some Kumite, you're an idiot. If you THINK you are able to handle yourself because of any other form of training, you're an idiot. To KNOW is the thing, and you only get that when you pass the practical exam. You'll then find out what's relevant in your training, and what isn't, and it's never THAT SIMPLE. For some people possibly. Those unable to distinguish between sport and real life I guess. The two things have always been seperate for me. On the other hand, top points fighter Alfie Lewis killed a guy in the street with a kick to the head. Not that anyone would approve, but a lot of the local Karate boys did doorwork, and some were known to deliberately get into fights to test their mettle. They also did tournaments. The point in point to me, is to work to the degree that you develop control. So if you can touch someone at full speed, get the point and not hurt them, what's to stop you from changing the depth and mechanics of technique to acheive a different level of force? I appreciate that's an oversimplification. If any of you watch K1 btw, look out for a fighter called Pele Reid. He started out as a point fighter, and when he'd won all there was to win, he turned pro heavyweight boxer before going into K1. Pele is about 6'7" and built like a brick outhouse. Please try and tell me how he's picked up all these bad habits from point fighting and would get a doing on the street. ;D of course your not going to bow to someone in the street just tear them up for attacking you or it just depends on the situation |
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paulhe
KR Orange Belt
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Post by paulhe on Mar 13, 2006 16:00:31 GMT
If any of you watch K1 btw, look out for a fighter called Pele Reid. He started out as a point fighter, and when he'd won all there was to win, he turned pro heavyweight boxer before going into K1. Pele is about 6'7" and built like a brick outhouse. Please try and tell me how he's picked up all these bad habits from point fighting and would get a doing on the street. ;D The guy looks fantastic, however the problem with Pele Reid is his inablity to take even a half decent punch on the jaw. |
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Post by Andy on Mar 13, 2006 23:49:03 GMT
If any of you watch K1 btw, look out for a fighter called Pele Reid. He started out as a point fighter, and when he'd won all there was to win, he turned pro heavyweight boxer before going into K1. Pele is about 6'7" and built like a brick outhouse. Please try and tell me how he's picked up all these bad habits from point fighting and would get a doing on the street. ;D The guy looks fantastic, however the problem with Pele Reid is his inablity to take even a half decent punch on the jaw. To be fair to Pele, that Rep came about the first time he fought a real boxer. He'd had a string of first round KO's and probably thought he was God. When your chins up on a pole like that, someone will find it eventually. I'd love to see Pele vs Bonjasky in K1. That'd be mighty interesting. |
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paulhe
KR Orange Belt
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Post by paulhe on Mar 14, 2006 11:14:30 GMT
The guy looks fantastic, however the problem with Pele Reid is his inablity to take even a half decent punch on the jaw. To be fair to Pele, that Rep came about the first time he fought a real boxer. He'd had a string of first round KO's and probably thought he was God. When your chins up on a pole like that, someone will find it eventually. I'd love to see Pele vs Bonjasky in K1. That'd be mighty interesting. I'm not convinced ;D Reid fought 22 times as a professional boxer and was knocked out cold 4 times in 1 round, 2 rounds, 3 rounds and 7 rounds. In the 16 fights he won and 2 he drew the standard was no better than out of shape and ageing nightclub bouncers. The four guys to do him, were only average domestic standard fighters themsleves. But I guess now though he can use his legs, maybe that'll make him formidable in K1. To address the original question, I think 'yes' modern competition can encourage bad habits but not necesarily bad body mechanics and dynamics. |
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Post by Andy on Mar 14, 2006 18:47:07 GMT
To be fair to Pele, that Rep came about the first time he fought a real boxer. He'd had a string of first round KO's and probably thought he was God. When your chins up on a pole like that, someone will find it eventually. I'd love to see Pele vs Bonjasky in K1. That'd be mighty interesting. I'm not convinced ;D Reid fought 22 times as a professional boxer and was knocked out cold 4 times in 1 round, 2 rounds, 3 rounds and 7 rounds. In the 16 fights he won and 2 he drew the standard was no better than out of shape and ageing nightclub bouncers. The four guys to do him, were only average domestic standard fighters themsleves. But I guess now though he can use his legs, maybe that'll make him formidable in K1. To address the original question, I think 'yes' modern competition can encourage bad habits but not necesarily bad body mechanics and dynamics. LOL, Yeah, like killing people in the case of Alfie Lewis. Aren't comparisons odious.  |
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Post by Aefibird on Mar 17, 2006 16:47:01 GMT
I'd say it could encourage bad habits if people wanted to use their competition training in self defence, but it does depend on why they're points fighting in the first place. Not everyone in MA wants to learn SD or to be able to use it; some people just like the sport aspect that is available in some areas of MA.
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Post by pasmith on Mar 17, 2006 18:10:31 GMT
Pele Reid and Alfie Lewis are not good examples when talking about bad habits formed from doing semi contact.
You guys talk like Pele Reid walked off the semi conatct mats and straight into a boxing ring. Didn't happen.
I'm sure he did a bit of proper boxing training before having his first boxing bout.
He'd be a fool if he didn't.
And Alfie Lewis didn't kill someone with a semi contact kick to the head. He hit the guy sure. With a punch. Guy fell over, hit his head and then died. Not really one to chalk up for the success of semi contact training as a way of preparing for the street is it?
Every respected RBSD guy I've read or heard has emphasised training to hit HARD as a pre-requisite for SD and that semi-contact training conditions you to pull your blows. Sounds plausible to me.
One bad habit that definately gets formed is complaining to the ref or stopping when you get hit hard rather than sucking it up and carrying on as happens in full contact.
Hard semi contact blows are seen as a reason to stop fighting rather than fuel to feed the aggressive fire.
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Post by Andy on Mar 17, 2006 19:33:49 GMT
Pele Reid and Alfie Lewis are not good examples when talking about bad habits formed from doing semi contact. You guys talk like Pele Reid walked off the semi conatct mats and straight into a boxing ring. Didn't happen. I'm sure he did a bit of proper boxing training before having his first boxing bout. He'd be a fool if he didn't. Sure. Maybe you could pick somebody nameless as an example? btw, I've fought Pele and followed his career. Not just a statistic to me. "Proper boxing training" No, not what I'd call proper training, but the same would be said of the majority of MMA wannabees. Put some gloves on, 'mill' a bit, then proclaim themselves boxers. P'shaw. Care to chalk out your sources there? It's a good bit before your time. Wow, quite the leap of topic there. Somehow we're on RBSD all of a sudden. Respected? Respected by who? You? True. I've noticed this a lot on footage of street fights. Combatants seem to be confused when they can't immediately see a referee or official. Not so. If you were at all up on the points circuit, you'd know that you don't stop until you're seperated, as it's the refs job to judge whether contact was appropriate or not. |
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Post by pasmith on Mar 20, 2006 14:44:21 GMT
"Care to chalk out your sources there? It's a good bit before your time." Sure. My source is an interview Alfie Lewis did in either Combat, Fighters or MAI (Sorry can't remember which, I think it was MAI) about 6-8 years ago. I know that's vague but that's as much as I can remember about the source. The story I remember from that interview was that Mr Lewis was stopped at some lights in his car. A group of men walked in front of him and bashed on his bonnet. Alfie lewis drove across the junction and got out to see if they had damaged his motor. The men followed him, took offense, one threw a punch, Alfie Lewis evaded and threw one back, bloke fell over and died. It went to court but Alfie Lewis was found not guilty of anything. If there's more it than that (which granted there probably is) then there's obviously more to know than I do. Not sure how long after the event the interview was done but this came from Alfie himself. Dunno how that qualifies as "before my time" seeing as I read it at the time the issue of the mag came out. "Wow, quite the leap of topic there." Not at all. Alfie Lewis was raised as an example of semi-contact not teaching you bad habits for the street because he managed to kill someone in a street fight. In fact it was you that did it. Talking about RBSD seems fair game to me. I countered by saying that one accidental death in street does not back up a a semi contact way of training. "Respected? Respected by who? You?" Well that depends don't it? Who is Geoff Thompson respected by? Me certainly. Can't talk for anyone else but I gather that he is rather well regarded in the SD field. What about these guys? Peter Consterdine? Jamie O'Keefe? Dave Turton? Kevin O'Hagen? Denis Martin? Gary Spiers? Steve Morris? How many more people do you want me to name that advocate training to hit hard and not training to pull your blows? I still can't say who respects them though. Maybe no one?  "If you were at all up on the points circuit, you'd know that you don't stop until you're seperated, as it's the refs job to judge whether contact was appropriate or not." Fair enough that sounds good. Much of my opinion of semi contact is based on competing in ITF TKD competitions about 8 years ago. People regularly stopped fighting if they got clinched, leg grabbed, hit to hard, leg kicked or anything else they knew to be against the rules. They were conditioned to do it by the rules they fought under. That's my point. ALL competitions negatively (and positively too let's not forget that) effect the way you think when you fight. It's up to the individual to decide how much they want those rules to effect their ability when doing it for real and ultimately their choice of competition format. |
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Post by Andy on Mar 20, 2006 22:24:33 GMT
Sure. My source is an interview Alfie Lewis did in either Combat, Fighters or MAI (Sorry can't remember which, I think it was MAI) about 6-8 years ago. I know that's vague but that's as much as I can remember about the source. Oh it's a lot longer ago than that. You got the car bit almost right. Isn't he dead? Lee Murray perhaps? There you go then. Take a look at those last two statements together. Where do you make that out to be conditioning, and where does the assumption come in that this will logically follow in your Acronym de jour 'RBSD'? That's about all we agree on so far. It's about Robin Hood, not the Archery contest. |
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Post by pasmith on Mar 21, 2006 10:42:27 GMT
"Gary Spiers?
Isn't he dead?"
Yeah. So? Does that make him less valid? If that is your criteria for judging a persons views then MA must be full of irrelevnt opinions.
"Lee Murray perhaps?"
No idea what you're getting at with this. Are you making some sort of connection between Lee Murray training for full contact but still getting stabbed in a street fight? Whereas Alfie Lewis trained for points and killed a man?
There's no way you can judge two approachs to training based on these two extreme real life events. Next thing you'll be talking about is the death of Alex Gong to prove that Thai boxing is crap.
"Take a look at those last two statements together.
Where do you make that out to be conditioning, and where does the assumption come in that this will logically follow in your Acronym de jour 'RBSD'?"
I don't see how those two views contradict each other.
If someone fights under rules then those rules will condition them to behave in a certain way.
A person can only partially chose how much those rules effect them. A person can't train semi contact and then start doing full contact blows for real. Yes they can up the contact through choice but they will not be as effective with those blows as they would be if they trained full contact all the time.
How you train is how you fight afterall.
What I meant by choosing how rules effects you is that you can chose what rules you fight under (rather than which bits of specific rules effect you) and how near to reality they are.
Do the rules allow grappling, clinching, throws, head shots, ground work etc etc.
Obviously we can't compete under "No rules" but we can get close so that the leap to reality is not such a big one.
Personally I think that any type of semi-contact makes the leap to reality a large one indeed.
A leap that many ordinary people wouldn't/couldn't manage.
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Post by pasmith on Mar 21, 2006 13:00:43 GMT
Also... "It's about Robin Hood, not the Archery contest." No sorry I disagree with that. If it was about "Robin Hood" then what would be the point of most people doing MA? How and what people train must have a bearing on how they fight or we are all wasting our time. A person's ability to fight is dependent on many things...their natural ability, how that ability is harnessed, training methods, techniques available in the style they do, how good their teacher is at imparting knowledge, fitness level, the quality of the opponent, how they're feeling that day, experience etc etc etc etc. Loads of stuff. To condense all that stuff down to "It's about Robin Hood" unfairly belittles and marginalises all of the other variables that make up the dynamic relationship that is a violent encounter. At the end of the day people that train to hit hard have a higher chance of hitting hard for real than people that train to pull their blows. I don't see why that is so annoying to you. Seems very straightforward and logical to me. I'm not saying semi-contact is crap per se. It has its place. I just think there are better ways of sparring or competing that offer more to the practitioner. Especially for...wait for it....you ready?....RBSD!  |
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