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Post by Aefibird on Aug 11, 2004 12:09:12 GMT
Which piece of bunkai do you think is great? Which ones do you think are unrealistic? Personally, my favourite kata application is the part in Heian Yondan; the section after the two uraken/keage/empi combos. It's the bit where you have your left hown down and your right had up and open, at about forehead height. Then, you shift direction by 90 degrees and your left hand now comes up to block whilst your right hand strikes downwards onto the collarbone, or similar. I always enjoy working on the application for that section. It's also my least favourite to work on, in one sense, as I broke my finger doing that application.  We were demonstrating the application exactly as it is in the kata, before going on to look at the 'street'/'practical' applications of it. We started off as though we were in the kata, just done the uraken, keage, empi combo to the right. From the empi we had to block down with the left hand, as in the kata. Your partner came in with a kick and you had to block it using the movements of H. Yondan. Then you'd turn and block their follow-on punch with the same arm and strike with the right hand. I was partnered with my instructor (to demonstrate to the lower grades) and I mistimed the block and ended up breaking a finger on his foot. That was a definate "D'oh!" moment...  |
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Post by AngelaG on Aug 12, 2004 13:47:17 GMT
My favourite bunkai would be the ones I manage to come up by myself! ;D I worked out a lovely new use for shuto uke yesterday which (I believe) would result in both elbow and shoulder dislocation is used properly! Hmmm I think I like the most violent, gruesome applications best!!  Worried yet??  I wouldn't say that I've found applications that I don't like, just applications that don't work on certain people... but that's why you change partners to get used to fighting with different body types! I've heard about, and read about, a few applications that are ridiculous and I'm glad that we are encouraged to think beyond the norm! |
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Post by searcher2 on Aug 13, 2004 16:24:57 GMT
In my humble opinion it is foolish to BLOCK kicks with your arm.
Ward. Parry. Re-direct.
The key to these semantics is that you get out of the way first/simultaneously. Matching the force generated by someone's leg to the force generated by your arm is not good tactics.
It can be done, but good bunkai must work for Most people, and Most people can't block kicks with their arm. This also leaves your face exposed to strikes. It's nice when you haven't been allowed to use a follow-up strike, but "on the street" people are always doing things they're not allowed to.
Blocking kicks with your arm only works when someone is using a modern karate attack.
A local black belt was told by his instructor to block a maegeri with his x-block and got both of his arms broken with one shot.
Happy to debate this one. I'm taking about someone really kicking and you really blocking. If you are using evasion and acceptance of force principles then I wouldn't call it blocking. Bad conotations.
Yours
John
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Post by shotopants on Aug 13, 2004 17:48:15 GMT
The key to this is knowing your own body and knowing your opponents. If you know where you are in relation to your opponents, then you are well ahead of the game.
To "block" anything is at best foolish. To "receive" anything inbound and react accordingly is a much safer bet.
Body evasion....
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Post by Aefibird on Aug 16, 2004 12:53:06 GMT
In my humble opinion it is foolish to BLOCK kicks with your arm. Ward. Parry. Re-direct. I totally agree. However, we were doing the technique exactly as in the kata, before breaking it down and thenapplying it in a WORKABLE way. The 'block' in the kata is unrealistic; we were just using the application exactly as it is in the kata to help the lower grade students get to grips with what we were trying to achieve, before moving onto the realistic scenarios. The actual follow-on application that we did bore little resemblence to how it is performed in H. Yondan. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ EDIT: I should point out that the others in the class didn't perform the 'unworkable' bunkai - it was just used as a demonstration by my instructor with myself as a partner. Sensei clearlty stressed that the movemets that he was showing were unrealistic, unworkable and possible even dangerous to the defender (as ably demonstrated by my finger mishap :  I really shoud triple read my posts before I submit them. What makes sense to me in my own little world obviously doesn't to your guys!  |
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Post by AngelaG on Aug 24, 2004 13:54:42 GMT
I totally agree. However, we were doing the technique exactly as in the kata, before breaking it down and thenapplying it in a WORKABLE way. The 'block' in the kata is unrealistic; we were just using the application exactly as it is in the kata to help the lower grade students get to grips with what we were trying to achieve, before moving onto the realistic scenarios. The actual follow-on application that we did bore little resemblence to how it is performed in H. Yondan. Can I just ask? What are the benefits of teaching low grades unworkable, unrealistic and possibly dangerous bunkai first? There is simple, workable bunkai that can be applied to every technique without going into strange twisty, rippy applications (and without losing the kata form). Also, do you not run the risk of shedding students if you show them bunkai which they will see as unworkable and unrealistic... especially if they then see one of the BBs break her fingers on it? I'm not having a go btw, just genuinely interested in your response! |
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Post by searcher2 on Aug 24, 2004 15:47:08 GMT
Try this:
Heian yondan:
Someone grabs you by the lapels. You fear a head-butt or knee, you are not going to get punched because he has his hands on you. Turn your body to the side so that if you get kneed it's in the hip, not the groin. The same movement serves to unbalance the opponent without you having to wrestle them in strength.
Simultaneously you raise your right hand up in front of your face to protect from a head-butt as you flick your left hand down into his groin. If you use the blade of your hand it looks just like Aidan Trimble does it.
This buys you time to do what you do naturally. If you are the world's best puncher - punch; if you are the world's best kicker - kick, if you are really able to slap then...
The kata follows on with grasping the opponent by his head and chopping into his carotid artery with your right arm, kicking and stomping on the way.
Any other issues with bunkai?
John
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Post by Aefibird on Aug 25, 2004 11:18:36 GMT
Can I just ask? What are the benefits of teaching low grades unworkable, unrealistic and possibly dangerous bunkai first? There is simple, workable bunkai that can be applied to every technique without going into strange twisty, rippy applications (and without losing the kata form). Also, do you not run the risk of shedding students if you show them bunkai which they will see as unworkable and unrealistic... especially if they then see one of the BBs break her fingers on it? I'm not having a go btw, just genuinely interested in your response! Well, seen as I obviously haven't got my point across as to what we were trying to do... I'll try and explain again.  Sorry. I'm a bit useless at trying to get actoss my point only by typing.  My instructor didn't claim that when we were performing the bunkai 'exactly as in the kata' that it was the bunkai. We were simply going through practicing the turn/block/strike as it is in the kata, to get a feel of using the moves on an opponent. Nowhere in the lesson did my instructor say that "this is the bunkai for this section in Heian Yondan". In fact, he made sure to point out the lower grades that if it was done exactly as in the kata that it IS unworkable, unrealistic and possibly even dangerous. I should also say that the 'unworkable' bunkai was only demonstrated by Sensei and myself, the lower grades didn't perform it. What's the point of getting them to practice unrealistic techniques when the next minute we were moving onto practical close quarter application? Sorry if I didn't make that point clear in my earlier posts. As I said before...I'm not good at communicating solely through typing. The very fact that I did sustain an injury added to the point that this bunkai wasn't workable at all. He then showed other applications of that section of the kata and demonstrated their effectiveness and workability against one or more attackers, both armed an unarmed. My karate club has a reputation in our area for teaching realistic and practical self-defence - usually 'dirty' fighting type techniques. For my Sensei to have been teaching the exact moves in H. Yondan as a workable piece of bunkai would have been very odd indeed and very out of character. He's a Sensei of the old-school and doesn't go in for fancy moves or combos which only work if your opponent attacks in a particular way. The fact that he's a Sensei of the old-school also means that he's into bunny-hops and punishing workouts (for the adults, he's a softie with the kids!), but that's another point entirely... |
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Post by AngelaG on Aug 25, 2004 11:47:52 GMT
OOOh you are particularly verbose today ;D I know what you mean about trying to get points across using textual means; without the subtle nuances of tone and body language real problems can occur. I think that many a disagreement has occurred over misinterpreted text! I probably could have come over a bit more tactful anyway, but I was tired and tired Angela and tact don't mix. |
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Post by Tommy_P on Sept 16, 2004 17:19:13 GMT
In my humble opinion it is foolish to BLOCK kicks with your arm. Hi John, I understand what you mean but I think that statement could be misleading  This somewhat explains your above statement implying that you can use your arms but it should be combined with body shifting at the least. Well, I agree (I think ;D). Blocking a kick at 90 degrees,forearm to shin would be dangerous however using the proper angles the kick could be blocked ,or rather redirected using the block in the traditional manner. This would naturally throw the attacker off line or overextend him. Your statement for the most part (IMO) is correct in saying meeting a shin with your forearm straight on is foolish but then again I don't suggest meeting anything straight on. IMO blocking (parrying) any technique should be combined with body shifting (tai sabaki) so as to get your body into a better position for countering and at the same time putting your attacker in a disadvantageous position, breaking his balance, stance, moving him offline or whatever. I think these are sometimes very subtle movements creating distance from the attack while at the same time being in better range for a counter. I always say karate is a game of inches. I think this says we are on the same page I'm not sure of your meaning here but I look at "modern karate kicks" as being too high (sport kicks). A non modern kick would have been too low to block with the arms and then only used once an opening was created by the hands. If this is what you meant I agree. "Labels" created many years after the technique really confused the issue. Tommy |
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thingy
KR Green Belt
Posts: 150
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Post by thingy on Sept 17, 2004 11:48:48 GMT
IMO blocking (parrying) any technique should be combined with body shifting (tai sabaki) so as to get your body into a better position for countering... ... I always say karate is a game of inches. Yep, Body shifting..moving in inches - absolutely. It's so very true. Not really one for coloured belts. At that stage I think you're too busy just trying to figure out what you're doing, without worrying that you have to move your big toe 2" to the left if you really want to do that technique. It's a fascinating natural progression that opens up an abundance of possibilities, and one that you don't particularly realise you've started doing until you notice the students you are teaching your new favourite technique to keep ending up in the wrong place. Sorry quick edit before i'm shouted at: Of course coloured belts can do body shifting. It's just that over a while of training, you're attention to detail becomes more refined. |
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Post by AngelaG on Sept 17, 2004 12:58:03 GMT
Actually I'd be interested in finding out the percentage of fights that have kicks. In most fights I have seen most of it seems to be pushing and yelling (while some boozed up girl shrieks in ear splitting frequencies behind them ;D) I've seen a couple of boots thrown in while one person is already on the floor. Well, no amount of arm blocking is going to help you there, most people curl up into a ball and protect their head and vitals. Apart from that I've seen about 2 rather amusing (and rubbish) flying kicks. Usually as one bloke gets dragged away and wriggles free, runs towards the other and comes in with a kick. These are so easy to deal with that it's laughable. Especially since most of the time the person is completely boozed up. I've never see a girl kick in a fight. But then again most girls tend to slap, claw and pull hair from what I have seen. I am fairly confident that I can move out of the way of a kick thrown from far away. If I was in a close situation and a knee or leg was thrown in I may belt down into the thigh before they get a change to come in (pre-avoidance). But as I don't get into fights and try and avoid well known 'danger spots' it's all hypothetical anyway. |
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Post by Tommy_P on Sept 17, 2004 17:36:33 GMT
Actually I'd be interested in finding out the percentage of fights that have kicks. Pretty much none. Sounds about right ;D Tommy |
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Post by bunkaiseeker on Oct 29, 2004 17:17:51 GMT
Hi Aefibird! I totally agree. However, we were doing the technique exactly as in the kata, before breaking it down and thenapplying it in a WORKABLE way. The 'block' in the kata is unrealistic; we were just using the application exactly as it is in the kata to help the lower grade students get to grips with what we were trying to achieve, before moving onto the realistic scenarios. The actual follow-on application that we did bore little resemblence to how it is performed in H. Yondan. This is what our club used to do as well and I believed this way for a long time. However, after seeing people like Patrick Mc Carthy or reading "Karate's Grappling Methods" by Iain Abernethy or Elmar Schmeisser's "Channan: the heart of the Heians" I have come to the conclusion that this is completely wrong. There IS at least one workable application that looks exactly like in the kata. And if you have to fudge the kata movements to make a bunkai workable then it is typically because you envisioned the wrong attack. And this typically happens when you use a "standard karate" "picture perfect kihon" type of attack. I really recommend the book of Iain Abernethy because it is readily available on Amazon, not very expensive and has not only bunkai in it but chapters on the principles of "realistic" fighting techniques (there is even a small section explaining how to head-butt). The trick for good bunkai is to let go of "Shotokan-type" attacks. Personally, I think these should never be taught in the first place because they stick in people's minds and are very hard to get out again later, waste everybody's time and the "more real" applications are not that hard to learn either - see my posting in the Heian Godan thread. Why teach people the completely unworkable "jump over a stick" sequence when the ippon seionage throw is a requirement for judo yellow belts - iow. it's easy enough to start teaching it even to white belts right away. |
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Post by AngelaG on Nov 1, 2004 22:25:18 GMT
Why teach people the completely unworkable "jump over a stick" sequence when the ippon seionage throw is a requirement for judo yellow belts - iow. it's easy enough to start teaching it even to white belts right away. Because they don't know any other techniques and they are happy enough to parrot every thing ever taught to them as the gospel truth instead of thinking out of the box? Maybe I am just being too harsh??  |
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Worried yet?? 
Sorry. I'm a bit useless at trying to get actoss my point only by typing. 
