Heian Godan

[AngelaG]

I’m interested in finding out any applications people have been told for the sequence of moves that lead up to the jump in Heian Godan (From just after the elbow strike to the X Block after you land). Most people have probably heard of the ‘jumping over the bo-staff’ application, but I was wondering if anyone had something they feel is a really good application for the moves (either individually or as a sequence).

I do have a few applications for the moves but the application for the sequence that sticks in my mind is as a throw over the hips. This seems a pretty good interpretation of the moves to me but I would be interested if other people have come up with anything else. Mainly because I would never instinctively throw someone like that, as I find throwing my hips out uncomfortable for me… and would spend far too much time thinking it out. I’d also be interested in seeing if people have different moves for different attacks (wrist grabs, straight punches, hook punches, grappling, lapel grabs, bear hugs etc).

[Aefibird]

Personally, I think the usual bunkai of "jump over a stick" is a very poor one.

We often use the jump to work bunkai for throws.

I read an article once where the author was arguing the case for the jumps in Shotokan kata actually symbolising stand-up grappling techniques. It was a very interesting read and thought-provoking.

If I can find the link to the article I'll post it.

[AngelaG]

Yeah, we're shown the jumps as throws. I was just wondering if other people had any other interesting applications.

[bunkaiseeker]

Angela,

this is an excerpt of an article I'm writing for a collection of bunkai for our dojo. Basically, I see the jump as a shoulder throw, not a hip throw. I think of the throw called ippon seionage in judo (try the judo-resource site, sorry, don't have the link handy). I've seen this also taught like this by Patrick McCarthy Sensei and I find his stuff to be very realistic.

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Heian Godan - Jump Sequence

The "classical" bunkai given by most JKA-based organisations (cf. blue videos?) has the defender uraken attacker 1 on the nose, following up with an upper cut using their left hand as "strengthening support" while turning around to face attacker 2 who attacks with a long stick. Jump over the stick and land on attacker 2, either punching them with the x-block (juji uke) or jamming further attack.

Analysing this sequence using the rules from above we must ask the following questions:
1) why does the defender look away during the "upper cut"?
2) what is the left hand of the defender doing - the "strengthening" argument does not hold since the force line does not run perpendicular to the hand during the upper cut - support in this direction is not needed?
3) would attacker 2 really try to sweep someone at a height one could easily jump over?
4) is it realistic to judge the distance so well that one could actually pull off the landing on attacker 2 to punch him with the x-block?
5) and why would the defender kneel down doing it instead of trying to punch him from above which would put your total bodyweight from the jump behind your punch? And just jamming the attack leaves the attacker still standing.


Let's look at this alternative interpretation in comparison:

The defender hits the attacker with uraken on the nose, then slips the uraken hand under the right shoulder of the attacker, grabbing the attacker's right hand with the left. Throw the attacker with Ippon-seionage. If the attacker still struggles or just to make sure, strangle him from behind using the "x-block" as a crossed lapel-grab, strengthening the strangle by pushing with the knee in the back using the whole body weight.


This application has several aspects that make it very realistic:

1) Using the diversion the uraken creates (the attacker should be at least slightly stunned) to make the throw easier.
2) Ippon-seionage is typically required for the yellow belt test in judo; therefore, it is something one can learn not only sometime in the forseeable future but actually in a quite short amount of time.
3) No "useless hands" hanging around.
4) Kneeling down while applying the "juji uke" actually makes sense because the attacker is now on the ground so the defender has to bend down to reach him.

In essence, this is an application that a person could learn to perform reasonably well inside 3-6 months. Using the rules given above, this sequence is far preferable to the standard "jump over the stick sequence".
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cheers

[Aefibird]

I've also seen application for that part of the kata taught at once club I visited as a pushing and stomping technique.

[Karate Resource]

Aefibird said:

I've also seen application for that part of the kata taught at once club I visited as a pushing and stomping technique.

Could you elaborate on this please?

[Aefibird]

Karate said:

Could you elaborate on this please?

Well, not very well, 'cos it was a while ago and it was in just one lesson that I had at a club other than mine.

Basically, where the 'jump' is in H.G., you'd stamp on an opponents foot whilst doing a double handed shove to move them off balance.

It was interesting to do, but I found it a little unpractical.

[ajay]

I have read with much interest, the bunkai explanation for Heian Godan by bunkaiseeker and while very interesting, it does seem to be a little "old hat". Always bearing in mind of course, that bunkai is something that you do TO your opponent(s) and not with them. What I mean is, the "normal" explanation goes like this: attacker punches like so and then you block like so. Take for example the opening sequence of Heian Nidan. If we use the classical bunkai eg; attacker steps in with Oizuki Jodan - move into Kokutsudachi making the "double block"- attacker makes Gyakuzuki - make crossing block/punch motion and then tettsui to Chudan. There are a few problems with this. Firstly, on the opening movement, only the left arm is being used the right having no apparent practical use and if the attacker does anything other than punch, the technique is rendered useless. Secondly, it would be very hard to "break the joint" as is so often taught, having said that, the Sotouke/Gyakuzuki combination would work and the hammer to the chest is also workable. Now let's look at another application of these same moves. The attack is Oizuki Jodan, move into Kokutsudachi using the right arm to block the punch then bring the left arm into action "the crossing block/punch motion" to bend the arm at the elbow then use the hammer as a take down throwing your opponent over your left knee. This type of technique is not reliant on your opponent attacking a certain way but is effective , REGARDLESS. And it is all done as one continuous motion. Going back to Heian Godan, where the "Uraken/Urazuki" combination is, try it as an arm lock (the uraken) then push your weight up and forward in a sort of running slam (the urazuki) then drop onto your opponent with a knee to the mid-section and a strangle (using the collar of the gi-in the dojo) or a left arm choke and right punch to the face combination. This would be the "jumping a stick" part of the kata. Or you could try the same motion up to the running slam, but instead of landing on top, keep hold of your opponents arm and, upon landing fall onto your back and apply a shoulder/arm bar (this would be the Kosadachi-Gedan Jujiuke movement). Phew! sorry for being so long winded. Hope these help!!

[searcher2]

The major problem here (as I see it) is not what the move in the kata does, but the fact that people refer to the attacker making oi-zuki.

If the attacker makes oi-zuki you are fighting a karate-ka. Don't fight karate-ka.

If you wish to explore bunkai then have the (practice) attacker use any one of the common methods of attack. Make it the kind of attack that someone "in the street" would use (tone down the power for partnered practice, turn it up for solo kata performance).

Evade the attack, seek the outside line, parry/ward, then just do the kata (under control).

Viola (sic), one set of bunkai.

[ajay]

I was just using the term "Oizuki" to illustrate the manner of the attack. of course you can alter the manner of the attack and thus tailor your response(s) to suit your needs

[bunkaiseeker]

Ajay,

yes, I see how you got that impression. Actually, this is because I posted a shortened version of an early draft of that article. Also, I wanted to concentrate on the main point "jumping over a stick is impractical but it works well as a throw, esp. if you have weakened the attacker by smashing their nose with uraken just before"

So what is leading to your critique is the missing sequence right before the uraken. Now, I can think of many beginnings but I ALWAYS think of my left hand grabbing the attacker somehow, very probably their right arm (with which he is most likely to punch) or their clothing assuming the fight has evolved to the grappling stage already. I NEVER view my left hand as "supporting the uraken" - that's just silly.

So this does not depend on the attacker coming in with a special technique at all. All it depends on is that the attacker is within grabbing range - which is not really that much of an assumption. Most real fights will be at that range.

It is also quite "intuitive" - one of the most common attacks by untrained people is grabbing you with their weaker side (usually left) hand and punching you with the other (usually right) hand. In Heian Godan I imagine doing the same just with more style

I also cut off the end sequence - there I can see two main versions depending on how they fall: putting my knee into their floating rib and reaching down, probably more in a punching manner (keep holding them with left, punch with right) or "kneeling" behind them and reaching to the front with a cross-lapel-grab strangle; my knee against their back supporting the strangle.

Hope this clarifies it a bit.

[ajay]

Hi Bunkaiseeker, I have to say that I agree with your synopsis totally. it seems that we think alike! Where in the country is your dojo as I would like to meet up with you and maybe exchange a few ideas. What do you say?

[Mr. Precision]

angelag said:

I’m interested in finding out any applications people have been told for the sequence of moves that lead up to the jump in Heian Godan (From just after the elbow strike to the X Block after you land). Most people have probably heard of the ‘jumping over the bo-staff’ application, but I was wondering if anyone had something they feel is a really good application for the moves (either individually or as a sequence).

It's a leg catch and throw.

The key is the kosa dachi stance, you've got your legs trapping one of your opponent's legs at that point (otherwise it's a dumb stance). This only works if his other leg is otherwise engaged. From the empi you could think of the "uraken" more as a morote uki as the left hand never leaves the forearm. It also explains the change of stance as a release of the opponent's leg. Then you turn round (limited space in your average dojo) and jump on him.

Actually you'll have heard this from me on the other board.

[Sionnagh]

I don't know the specifics of Heian Godan but we use Pinan Godan. That part is fairly similar according to what is shown in the relevant volume of Nakayama's "Best Karate".

Anyway, the kosa dachi before a turn I would say can often be applied as a throw, most often seems to be a hip or shoulder throw. Or a variant thereof.

judoinfo.com is one site which has clips and animations of such things, o goshi and seoinage are a couple worth looking at for this.


Mick

[random]

It's a leg catch and throw.


Are you saying this IS the bunkai, or A bunkai. surely the only limits to application is imagination. I have used to kosa dachi stance to avoid the flaying aggressor already on the floor but no out, while using the arm and bodyweight to smash into an aggressor, and then jump up to finish off the aggressor on the ground. (It is easier to demonstrate than explain in writing).

Don’t allow bunkai to become prescriptive and say “This is it” rather “here is one application, go away and work out another”. And if your instructor hasn’t asked you to, get together with a fellow student and work some out in your own time and then show them it.

Imagination over spoon fed.