Computer science, genetics and kata

[Mr. Precision]

What do they have in common? Information.

A post just now on the all-karate forums got me thinkin about how the various karate masters in the past have modified the kata across all of the styles we have today. Each one tweaking, making mistakes, forgetting here and there so that the kata have mutated, possibly quite considerably from the original kata. Funakoshi in particular modified them quite heavily, as did Itosu and Matsumura. I wonder what they originally looked like.

It may be possible to reconstruct how the kata were originally taught relatively faithfully.

In 1948, a computer scientist (Claude Shannon) determined ways of transmitting information completely accurately over unreliable lines. The mathematical specifics of Information Theory are way beyond me but one of the things it allows you to do is reconstruct messages from multiple corrupted or changed copies of a message.

Geneticists are using information theory to track the changes to genes, they can actually rebuild what a gene originally looked like before many generations of mutation happened to it.

I don't see why the same techniques couldn't be applied to kata.

[random]

The theory is good…although it does seem like a lot of hard work to start an argument among the MA fraternity…but good luck.

[Mr. Precision]

random said:

The theory is good…although it does seem like a lot of hard work to start an argument among the MA fraternity…but good luck.

Oh, I'm waayy to lazy to do anything like that. I was just putting it out there in the hope that someone like Patrick McCarthy would do it for me. ;D

[dickclark]

Information and Communication theory is one thing, Kata is another. Some of the old Kata my have reborn, but who is to say. You have to have some standard text on what were the rules. The best guess would be to take the folk and temple dances and see what could be done there. If you look and shotokan ryu Kata, and lets say shorin ryu Kata, I would be hard pressed to get the latter from the former.

[Mr. Precision]

dickclark said:

Information and Communication theory is one thing, Kata is another.

Kata is information.

You take the same kata from all of the styles, not just one like shotokan or shorin. You're relying on the mistakes and changes from the original being at different places for the different styles or senseis. Given enough different lineages you can get a fairly high probability of determining the movements of the kata as originally taught.

[dickclark]

The challenge is to 'know', or at least find the mistakes. Elmar Schmeisser used this to re-invent a lost kata. I am not sure just how well it has worked. But the result was interesting.

[Mr. Precision]

dickclark said:

The challenge is to 'know', or at least find the mistakes.

That's where the information theory kicks in.

www.answers.com/topic/information-theory

[Mr. Precision]

dickclark said:

The challenge is to 'know', or at least find the mistakes.

That's where the information theory kicks in.

www.answers.com/topic/information-theory

[dickclark]

I think you are going in the wrong direction in your reference here. Information theory here is based on transmitted one and zeros and well basically physics. I believe a better path would be Linguistics. Dance or kata as a visual representation of language.

[darkstar]

dickclark said:

I think you are going in the wrong direction in your reference here. Information theory here is based on transmitted one and zeros and well basically physics. I believe a better path would be Linguistics. Dance or kata as a visual representation of language.

i agree. you are talking about neurological entrainment of of motor unit firing patterns within the muscle, and retention of such patterns in a specific person's brain, who is now long dead. how could this possibly be replicated by any I.T system without the relevant data to put in?

you'd be better off trying to figure out your answer using your own body as the "computer" at least it's (hard)wired the same as his was, even if the "operating system" has evolved with time.

[subzero72]

mrprecision said:

dickclark said:

The challenge is to 'know', or at least find the mistakes.

That's where the information theory kicks in.

www.answers.com/topic/information-theory

now that link was helpful