Chinte

[pasmith]

Just downloaded a clip of Kanazawa performing Chinte.
Never seen Chinte performed before.
All seemed fine until the end.
WHAT is that hopping backwards like a Chinese Vampire all about?
As someone that questions the validity of kata as a training device it's this kind of thing that really stands out as absurd.
Not only does it LOOK stupid it seems about as combat effective as a rubber knife.
What is it for? Jumping on the heads of your vanquished foes? Learning how to fight with your feet tied together?
Surely the designers of Chinte could have found a better way of getting back to the starting point (a convention I find hard to understand at the best of times)?
How about a couple of gedan barais? They always seem favourite.

If anyone wants to see what I mean go here...

www.shotojukukai.com/kata/kata.htm

and download Chinte.

[thingy]

Good chinese vampire reference.


Iain Abernerthys message board covered this subject and I remember reading it a while ago. A lot of people were equally perplexed.

www.iainabernethy.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000025

I haven't read it since, but I think someone on there makes an attempt at putting some applications to this strange looking move.

[AngelaG]

I suspect the truth will never be known 100% accurately. However sensei has shown this as a neck crank with the bunny hops being a shaking movement backward to unbalance and create extra stress on the neck.

[andym]

angelag said:

I suspect the truth will never be known 100% accurately. However sensei has shown this as a neck crank with the bunny hops being a shaking movement backward to unbalance and create extra stress on the neck.

I could go along with that....or a wrist lock pulling your attacker off balance maybe?

[AngelaG]

Yeah anything like that, to offbalance and create the pain on/pain off type reaction thingummy.

(I hope I'm not blinding anyone with science here )

[andym]

It's a difficult one. From what I read on Iains website they're moving towards a possible later add-on due to competition Kata needing to start and finish in the same place. Others are talking about Full Nelson's etc which could be painful if you ask me.

I'd like to think there was a genuine reason/application for the jumps! This could get interesting. I'll ask my Sensei tonight, see what he thinks!!

[AngelaG]

I'm not convinced by the hops being reason for getting back to the start though; there are so many other techniques that could have ben used without making it look so ridiculous. For example in empi there is a step back into back stance with shuto uke, a much more dignified way of getting back to the start if that was all this was about.

However have read that shito-ryu just step backwards, rather than hop, but then a step back although unbalancing does not show the stress that would be placed on a neck if it was also jigged on the vertical plane. I definitely think the backward move is to unblance a captured opponent, the hand position to me would suggest head (similar to Jion). I wouldn't jump back when doing it for real but I would have the head being manipulated on both the horizontal and vertical planes.

[andym]

No, I'm not convinced they are either, like you say there are better ways to get back to the start than a couple of hops.

Wasn't Chinte disguised as a dance? Or am I thinking of something else? Might have something to do with it....maybe?

[pasmith]

I think my "jumping on peoples heads" sounds the most practical bunkai so far.

I have to say that if you showed a neck crank to some BJJ or MMA guys and then started to jump about two footed with both feet together (to put stress on the neck?!?!?) they would probably tap out through laughing too much.
We all know that two feet together is one of the most unstable positions you can be in. We also all really know (in our heart of hearts) that if you wanted to put more stress on the neck with a crank you'd line up the technique, establish a base or control position and crank that mother.
Surely if a crank breaks the neck then that is as much stress as you need to create?
I'm not going to start hopping about while doing an arm-bar to stress the arm.

"they're moving towards a possible later add-on due to competition Kata needing to start and finish in the same place"

That sounds like a cop-out to me. If that is the excuse for this move then why doesn't that apply to other moves?
How much other stuff was "added" later?

I thought the bunkai guys were all in favour of saying that ALL moves in kata can be used to fight IF we only had the knowledge of our ancestors?

Good debate though.

[andym]

I don't think 3 dainty hops could be used for jumping on peoples heads! Especially if you compare the 'hops' in Chinte to the 'jump' in Godan....I'd be more inclinded to say the 'jump' in Godan would finish your opponent, rather than the little hops in Chinte.

Another angle to look at is avoidance....?

[pasmith]

Hmmm...I'm seriously trying to be as open minded about this as I can...but...avoidance? Seriously?
What do have to avoid using a two footed backwards jump that wouldn't be better avoided using just bog-standard footwork?
I can't think of anything.
A small attacking shrew perhaps?
If I ever get to the dizzy heights of being a Karate BB I shall avoid this kata like the plague methinks.
There should be an intinational Karate concensus where everyone admits that this is a stupid move that no one can really find a use for and is hitherto replaced with a turning gedan barai, two stepping punches and another turning gedan barai to end up back at the start and facing the right way.
All agree say "Aye".

[AngelaG]

I don't think the neck would be cranked by daintily hopping backwards, however kata, and especially Shotokan kata, is highly formalised for performance. So in real life the choke or whatever would be applied and then you would just choke that mother.... We have used this kind of technique before, i.e. like a dog when they catch a rabbit, keep shaking it all about.

[Shorin Ryu Sensei]

The link isn't working for me (probably this @#^@$# dailup!).

[Aefibird]

There's also the ol' chestnut bunkai that gets trotted out about jumps in kata - for jumping over a staff.

I've also read that the ending of Chinte has "spiritual" meaning, rather than practical application. I read once that it was supposed to represent waves returning to the shore or summat like that. I wish I could remember where I read it, but I can't. Somewhere on t'internet...

Personally, I fall into the "all moves in kata have practical application" camp, so while it might have spiritual application to it, IMO there's gotta be a realistic/workable reason for it as well.

Trouble is, Shotokan kata has been alterted that much from Okinawan that it can be hard to see what changes were done for practical reasons and what might have been done for performace reasons, or to disguise meaning or just because someone or other decided to just change the darn thing....

[AngelaG]

To clarify:
I think most people get the idea that with a stance the "work" is being done halfway through the move and the beginning and the ends are just snapshops. However the idea seems to get lost when thinking in terms of application, and people want applications that look exactly like the end position of the move. This isn't always possible because a) You'll break your partner or b) their body gets in the way, the idea is that in a real situation one applies the power as though they WERE trying to get to the end of the technique. Rather than worrying about how the hops look in the kata (I admit they look ridiculous) think about it in terms of what is happening. The hops are up and down and backwards, indicating shifting on both the horizontal and vertical planes?!?

Aefibird, I've read the story of the stance being to jump over the waves too. I just don't buy it I'm afraid, sounds like a load of old claptrap to me I'm more inclined to agree with the returning to start point (given Shotokan's obsession with form), however like I said I think there would be more dignified ways of doing that if that was one's aim.