Ground fighting

[pasmith]

How many people here address groundfighting in their training?
If you do is it "Karate flavoured" groundfighting or do you incorporate another art like Judo or BJJ?
Do you allow groundfighting when you spar?
If you don't touch on groundfighting can you say why?
Don't like it?
Don't think it's necessary?
Don't think it's part of Karate?
Instructor doesn't teach it so you don't get to do it?
If you don't do it would you like to given the choice?

[bwRyukyuKempo]

We do some ground fighting as part of tuite and scjj. My instructors (husband and wife) don't concentrate on it very much. I'd like to do more of it.

See quite a bit at Dillman seminars. As with anything else, it is essentially our self-defense moves, with pressure points, but laying down.

Most people from my school are pretty squeemish about posting on the ground with another person. Last seminar a buddy of mine had/got to do some rolling around with one of the better looking females in our class (lucky son-of-a...... . He got pretty embarrassed about it for some reason. I paired off with another guy who was really uncomfortable when I laid on him for the exercise. That kind of contact (male or female) doesn't bother me, as i am more interested in learning the techniques.

Anyone else ever notice this?

[AngelaG]

Any groundwork we do is all done with the intention of getting back on the feet as soon as possible. We always try to stay on our own feet, and drop the opponent, and if we do find ourselves down we try and get back up.

The biggest part of our training involves us being on our feet, we do some groundwork, but it's all approached with a very different ethos from BJJ etc. Personally I don't agree with deliberately taking people to the floor outside of sports use. It is important to be able to deal with going to the floor, and I quite like the floorwork exercises we do, but rolling around for long periods of time is not my bag.

[bwRyukyuKempo]

We train how to get back up to our feet also. And how to avoid getting into a "wrestling match" if we do hit the floor.

But, if it gets into a clinch on the ground, you gotta train on how to get out of it before you can get up.

Personally, i would like to do more ground fighting, because a lot of fights end up on the ground.

The other point i was trying (jokingly) to make is that people, in general, aren't comfortable with ground fighting training.

[Aefibird]

bwryukyukempo said:

The other point i was trying (jokingly) to make is that people, in general, aren't comfortable with ground fighting training.

I think that's quite true. Many people don't seem to like the physical contact of ground fighting training - with a primarily striking style a person can keep their opponent at a distance and not have much physical contact. On the ground there's a lot more and this can really bother some folk, especially if they are training with members of the opposite sex.

[random]

bwryukyukempo said:

We train how to get back up to our feet also. And how to avoid getting into a "wrestling match" if we do hit the floor.

But, if it gets into a clinch on the ground, you gotta train on how to get out of it before you can get up.

Personally, i would like to do more ground fighting, because a lot of fights end up on the ground.

The other point i was trying (jokingly) to make is that people, in general, aren't comfortable with ground fighting training.

I have done ground fighting, and would avoid it like the plague. Get into a wresting match on the floor outside of the sport arena and you will without a doubt get your head kicked in by someone else’s mate. (this kind of links in to a new recent thread). But there is this recent trend for learning how to do a full half open guard while on the floor, but no one is kicking you in the head while you are holding someone else to your chest.

Avoid the floor, learn how to get up, but learn how not to get there in the first place.


Also I feel uncomfortable rolling around wrestling on the floor now, because it is not a place I plan to be.

[whitewarlock]

I started with groundfighting. Initially judo, and later wrestling. I feel very strongly every 'serious' martial artist needs to apply a significant amount of their training time to these skills . The argument of, "just don't go there" means nothing if your opponent can get you there with consumnate ease.

I, for one, will take a fight where-ever it needs to go, to ensure i maintain the advantage and walk away alive. Yes, being on the floor can be a very bad place, under certain circumstances, but under most circumstances... if you're good on the floor, and your opponent is not, you can end a fight very very very quickly. You simply have so much more control of your opponent while grappling, than you do stand-up and two feet away. Considering this, dismissing groundfighting is just as detrimental as dismissing stand-up fighting.

The underlying message i'm presenting is that if you limit your studies, you limit yourself. You understand what your opponent can present to you only if you understand it as well as, or better than, him/her. Your ignorance... is his opportunity.

[thfsnc]

I also feel ground fighting is extremely important for a well rounded fighter and practice whenever I can. However, my Karate instructor seems to have a strong disdain for anything on the ground...we do some clinch drills where one has to get the other one down using pressure points, throws, sweeps, or chokes...but as soon as you go down you have to get back up and go again. His thing is finish it on the feet.

I've done some Ju-jitsu in the past and feel very comfortable on the ground, just dont want to go there in a street fight situation. But if all else was equal and it was a one on one situation or I had to subdue someone...i'd gladly take it down.

[pasmith]

I see any fight as encompassing a mixture of opportunities to finish that fight.
Opportunities that just happen and opportunities that you manufacture yourself.
The way I see it the more training you have and the more variety in that training then the better able you are to make use of those opportunities.
If all your groundfighting training is geared towards standing up you may miss the opportunity to rear naked choke the beggar unconscious or slap on a quick armbar.
If all your ground fighting is geared towards tapping the guy you may miss the glaring opportunity just to stand up and get away.
When I grapple I generally look for a quick finish first and then failing that standing up or improving my position.
Sadly the only way to get good at finishing people quickly is to grapple for long periods so that you get good at spotting opportunities. Kind of a catch 22 really.
Can't get good at grappling quickly without grappling slowly.

[AngelaG]

I quite like groundwork on the whole. I never feel particularly bothered about rolling around the floor in close contact with people... well perhaps if they had bad personal hygiene I might...

However I still don't think it's a great idea to be trying to apply locks, bars and chokes on the floor. Obviously if the only solution to getting someone off is one of these then I guess there is no other choice, but my personal prefernce is always to get back up as soon as possible. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think your average bar brawler would be that great at keeping a determined person with MA knowledge on the floor?

[pasmith]

Surely getting up is only a means to an end?
That end being winning the fight?
You're in a fight so at some stage you're gonna have to put this guy away and finish him (unless he gives up or summat)?
I don't see the logic behind getting up with the guy still able to fight and pass up the opportunity to knock him out with a RNC (if one presented itself) or leave him on the deck with a busted arm or knee.
A finish is a finish after all.
Finish him in 15 seconds on the floor or 30 seconds stood up?

By way of an example.
At my last grading they introduced limited time groundfighting.
It was still knockdown emphasis but if it went to the floor you had about 10 seconds to do something if you wanted.
I had 4 x 2 minute bouts with four different guys and managed to secure three submissions where time ran out seconds before the tap, one total tapout and one submission that the guy wouldn't tap from even if I busted his arm (he was that kind of guy ).
And I'm no great shakes on the ground and haven't done BJJ for over a year now.
I just know a bit and could apply it quickly on people that had little idea of what I was doing (none of them were complete noobs and all more experienced in knockdown than me).
In all instances the submission would have done substantial damage or a KO leaving me much free-er to get up safely.
That was amongst a few instance where we went to the floor and I couldn't find any subs and didn't have the time to manufacture one.
All I'm saying is the ability to get up isn't enough on its own IMHO. It's tha ability to finish that is the key and that can present itself at any time if you know what to look for.

[AngelaG]

Well we don't just practice getting back up, there are other elements. I just think the getting up is quite important.

[pasmith]

More important than making sure the other guy can't?

[Aefibird]

I'd say so - especially if he's got a couple of mates who are trying to kick you into next week whilst you're down on the floor. Don't get me wrong, I like groundwork, I've trained in it and I was also brought up in a Judo household, so I've had plenty of exposure to it. However, in a SD situation, getting back up is vital IMO. You just don't know what else could happen and the ground can be a vulnerable place to be. Yeah, obviously it depends on each individual situation, but on the whole, I'd perefer to try and get back up. There's more to it that just getting back on your feet, but I feel that should be my aim I I ever went to the ground.