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[AngelaG]

But that can only be taken so far. Take a 14 year old boy, for example. Say his parents have tried their best to raise him with a strict moral code, but despite that he has fallen under a bad influence at school. A 14 year old could quite easily be bigger than both parents, let's be honest, if he really wants to do something they don't want him to how exactly are they going to stop him?

As I said it is not uncommon to hear of a family where the other children have grown up fine, but one goes of the rail. If it was down to the parents alone then they would have all gone that way...

[Mr. Precision]

random said:

A very idealistic view of the world, schools do act in Loco Parentis, and as such have a responsibility to develop well rounded individuals. Not just deal out facts.

Most children spend very little time in the company of their parents; look at the amount of families with both parents in full time employment with the kids in paid childcare out of the family environment.

Fortunately kids don’t all grow up to be like their parents…just imagine some of the offspring.

Now there's a real abdication of responsibility... Our schools can never, ever act as parents and shouldn't be seen as such. There's what? 30, 40 in a class, underpaid teachers, an hour to a class and then on to the next one, little or no moral and ethical education. They can't possibly turn out well rounded individuals and it's wrong to expect that from them. They would have to have the kids 24 hours/day to be any more than education establishments.

There's an old Jesuit saying "Give me the child until the age of 7 and I will show you the man". This is backed up by scientific research, the first 5 years are the formative ones in a person's life, in particular the first 3 years. Unless you're advocating public boarding school types of places it's down to the parents.

[random]

That’s the example that proves the rule, look at bullying and gangs, generally these kids have good homes and responsible parents, who despair because they have done everything possible to be ‘good’ parents. Yet outside influence can be very strong. Peer pressure is hard to resist, kids want to fit in, this problem is huge and can never real be resolved until the society we live in wakes up and smells the coffee.

[random]

MR Precison, the only advice I can give about schools, is to go and see what they are doing, from what you have just posted you are in for a surprise

[random]

And as for the Jesuit model, have you considered the Salesian Model, which advocates a wider approach to education.

[Mr. Precision]

angelag said:

But that can only be taken so far. Take a 14 year old boy, for example. Say his parents have tried their best to raise him with a strict moral code, but despite that he has fallen under a bad influence at school. A 14 year old could quite easily be bigger than both parents, let's be honest, if he really wants to do something they don't want him to how exactly are they going to stop him?

The older they are the harder it'll be to change the patterns of behaviour. What would have needed a little nudge 10 years earlier is going to take a hefty push by 14. First, remove him from the influence, if he's violent and they can't cope get help from someone who can.

angelag said:

As I said it is not uncommon to hear of a family where the other children have grown up fine, but one goes of the rail. If it was down to the parents alone then they would have all gone that way...

Not necessarily. Even though they like to live in denial, parents relate to all of their children differently, even identical twins. Children's personalities form patterns when they live with sibling relationships. It isn't well understood yet but it is far more predictable than you'd think.

[Mr. Precision]

random said:

That’s the example that proves the rule, look at bullying and gangs, generally these kids have good homes and responsible parents, who despair because they have done everything possible to be ‘good’ parents.

"Go to your room" doesn't count as everything possible and kids out roaming the streets in packs at night doesn't exactly describe responsible parents.

random said:

Yet outside influence can be very strong. Peer pressure is hard to resist, kids want to fit in, this problem is huge and can never real be resolved until the society we live in wakes up and smells the coffee.

This bit I agree with. ;D

[AngelaG]

Due to the MASSIVE topic swing I'm going to be moving this to the general discussion thread..

[Sionnagh]

There was a time when a child at school who e.g. was heard swearing might get a clip over the ear. Then if they went home and complained they'd get another both for the swearing and for any disrespect shown to the teacher. Now the parents would be straight around the school to complain about the treatment.

But there are also plenty of instances where parents have been prosecuted for assault for spanking their kids. Because some go to an extreme which becomes assault all are restricted from particular avenues of disciplining their children.

There are people who are horrified that some parents might contemplate smacking a child. Those people could probably do with a good clip over the ear too.


Mick

ps I'm going to go hide somewhere now...

[AngelaG]

I think you make a good point Mick. On one hand the state wants us to take accountability for our children, on the other hand they want to be "big brother" over every aspect of family life.

One of my friends still remembers with mortification the time she was about 13/14 years old and playing up in front of her mates (showing off), so her father put her over his knee and smacked her. She was not hurt, but by heck, she was embarrassed! ;D

[random]

"Go to your room" doesn't count as everything possible and kids out roaming the streets in packs at night doesn't exactly describe responsible parents.

I thought I could be cynical, do you talk to these parents, have any interaction with the kids, I am privileged to do so, parents and the children.

Good comments about smacking, although it is a fine line and easy to cross.