Sharing knowledge

[AngelaG]

As you know I have set up the Karate Resource forum, and the discussion board so that Martial Artists, from all over the world, can get together and discuss their martial arts, in the hope that knowledge can be imparted and in that way hopefully we can all learn and evolve in our chosen paths.

However this is not a dojo. I don't know the majority of people on this board. I have no idea if you are who you say you are, and in most cases I guess I'll never find out for certain. Decisions about integrity, honour, trust etc. have to be made based on what you decide to type on your keyboards at any given time. However, you choose when to come online, you can write and rewrite your posts until they display some sort of image you want to project to the world.

So, because I am passionate about my art, and because I believe I am learning a lot of good stuff I want to be able to share my knowledge. Because I believe that different people always have different approaches I also hope to learn from you all. So we give and we take...

But...

We have a responsibility. What we are learning is potentially dangerous to us, or whomever we choose to work with in our training. In a dojo environment I can see who my partner is, I can see who my teacher is and I can act accordingly. I wouldn't advocate teaching the really nasty stuff to a young kid, who just might decide to show his buddy in the playground at school the next day. If someone a little bit dodgy comes into the dojo and the sensei is suspicious that mayebe they may use the knowledge to hurt innocent people, or in the pursuit of wrongdoing, they can then make a conscious decision as to whether they want to continue teaching said person.

In an open forum like this we write our thoughts, and we perhaps write about applications we have come up with in our lessons. And then the words are on the screen for anyone to read. That could be children, people who revel in violence, or even just the idiots. People who read an application and then with no "safety harness" decide to go and test it on their friend. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

I have to say I would be extremely reluctant to ever share everything I know in an open forum like this. What do you think? Do you think you are truely open, or do you hold back? Are there some things that you think are just not suitable for any old member of the public to read?

[random]

As you will know from my earlier attempts to educate Jones, (good luck Derby). I, personally don’t like to hear too much of the violent anecdote, and despite my first post and the reception it received I try and not to go into too much detail about actual application.

Despite the availability of violence on the Internet I would not like to think that I had contributed in some way to providing said information. I prefer to discus the wider philosophical issues of why we do what we do, not trying to out do each other with the most vivid explanations of bunkai and street fights (most of the later are probably made up).

Again, part of the problem is who are we who subscribe to these forums, and especially in this case, this forum. Who knows who is reading what we write and who can access secure information, login details etc. (not just Admin and staff). And what can come of it.

Part of the reason for choosing a username that is Random (sorry couldn’t resist it) is that I live and work in the public domain, literally, I cannot be ex directory or anything like that and one doesn’t know who we are entering into discussion with, I deal, on a daily basis with the less fortunate members of society and the last thing I would want is suddenly to be pestered by Muppets, trolls and pixies.

I know I hold back when posting, there really is no substitute for face-to-face conversation with people you know and trust, could a further step be some kind of regular seminar or gathering for those who would want to train, share and discuss our arts. As I type this I am aware of the nightmare scenario of organising a gathering like this then having a Muppet turn up, then there are those who are abroad or live miles away from anybody else in England, Devon, for instance.

I too am passionate about my art, I love it, it is as much part of me as…it is in my blood and I have enjoyed and do enjoy sensible intelligent discussion, and sometime banal humorous stuff too. However we have to be responsible, from a moral standpoint, responsible for what we write.

Angela, is there a particular reason/concern for starting this particular thread?

[AngelaG]

Not a concern as such. However with some of the application threads that have recently come up I just suddenly realised there was a lot of stuff that I just couldn't bring myself to post. I guess the reasons for this are twofold.

Firstly the reasons stated above.

And secondly a lot of the knowledge I have has been taught to me, and I don't think it would be right of me to share all this knowledge, and set myself up as some sort of know-it-all, when a lot of it is the result of years of hard work and research from other people. Also if the people concerned feel the desire to impart their knowledge they are more than able to do it through this board, it's their decision to make, not mine to make for them

I think the issue just came up because of some thoughts I had on recent threads, and, if I'm honest, because of some of the recent trolling problems. I think I found out recently how easy it is to get under the skin of some people, without even having done very much.

[random]

Once of the things I do not like is the definitive ‘THIS IS IT’ when it comes to application, it also, in someway deals with the 'Lies…'thread…who would seriously want to start putting down everything they have been taught onto paper, or in this cyber space, if we don’t, why should MASTER GICHIN FUNAKOSHI want to tell all to everybody who might read his book.

It is always difficult to take what could be critically called a moral high ground, although I admire that kind of responsibility. Part of the trouble is, if not here then they will do it somewhere else…good for them. Censorship is always difficult, because you rely on yourself and the MODS to act responsibly, interestingly enough I have often wanted someone to lock a thread sooner than they have for lots of reasons.

Trolls will always hijack sensible discussion, it is the nature of the beast, from an admin point of view it is how to tame that beast and make it work within the ideals with which you set it up. GOOD LUCK. Part of the problem is the fact that people can come here and live a life that isn’t theirs and never existed.

[Mr. Precision]

angelag said:

In an open forum like this we write our thoughts, and we perhaps write about applications we have come up with in our lessons. And then the words are on the screen for anyone to read. That could be children, people who revel in violence, or even just the idiots. People who read an application and then with no "safety harness" decide to go and test it on their friend. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

I have to say I would be extremely reluctant to ever share everything I know in an open forum like this. What do you think? Do you think you are truely open, or do you hold back? Are there some things that you think are just not suitable for any old member of the public to read?

Is this based on the lies, damned lies and kata descriptions post? it's a fair point.

My take on it. In a digital world, information can be copied at the push of a button, the cost of the information (rather than the worth) is close to zero which means it can spread easily and become ubiquitous. It is impossible to stop, the movie companies and the record companies now realise they've let the genie out of the bottle by going digital. Whether we, the government, record companies like it or not, it only takes a single person out of the 40 million with internet access to publish the information.

The result is it's going to be everywhere no matter what you do or whether you published it, someone else will. There are bomb making manuals, nerve gas production recipes (remarkably simple to make, did I mention I did chemistry?) and all sorts of horrible stuff if you're interested.

There are a few things you can do about it though. Cloak the information in terms and language that laypeople don't understand. Lawyers, doctors, IT people (hand up), plumbers, electricians, scientists all do it quite deliberately for various different reasons. Karate's ideal, it's Japanese already.

Assume a certain level of competence. Don't go into excruciating detail over how to do the application, trained martial artists will be able to follow the flow.

Hide it in noise. There is a staggering amount of information out there, how would a layperson tell what is real and what is not? Dim mak springs to mind.

Finally, the applications are just words. No more. There's nothing in a description of a really nasty technique that they couldn't have thought up themselves already and if they're reading up on karate then they've been thinking along those lines anyway. What they <i>don't and can't</i> have is the skill, the technique that is required to execute the application effectively. They have to go to a dojo and spend years training to develop that and it's that which makes karate dangerous. It's much easier to carry a knife or hit someone with a big stick.

I don't worry about it too much. Anyway, I was up way too late yesterday, can barely see the screen now.

[AngelaG]

Random - There are threads recently that have run longer than some people may have deemed appropriate. However there is method behind the madness. Sometimes it is easier to allow a troll to present themselves in all their glory in one thread which can then be locked or deleted, rather than having to shift through a lot of different threads to pick out all the nonsense. The Staff Only section is there for a reason, so that we can group together and decide on a course of action, but rest assured the entire forum and content of threads are being kept an eye on. Of course if the content of a thread ever offends anyone please feel free to contact me or any staff member and we will have a look and see if your concerns are founded.

Mrprecision - It wasn't the lies thread that started off my little monologue It was actually a bunkai one.

For me knowing that the same information may be available elsewhere does not relinquish my own moral responsibility. Lots of people break the speed limit, that does not make it right, and nor does it make the consequences and repurcussions any less severe if one day you run over a child...

[random]

It is the fact that we posses this knowledge in the first place that means we don’t need graphic explanations and examples. And people do find information on the net and copy/use it and I wouldn’t want to think that something I had put here was used in that way, or copied and put somewhere else.

Yes the genie is out of the bottle; I can access things that scare the pants off me. I am an intelligent, sensible, rational adult and am beyond the playground mentality which has manifested itself recently.

The argument that someone else might do it/post it doesn’t mean I have to and have to condone it.

[Andy]

What some seem to be saying, is that they feel a need to lead by example, with which I largely concur.

With the intent, I gather it is easy enough to find a means to manufacture explosives and poison from simple household components.
I have yet to hear of discussion on an MA forum leading to serious injury, but I don't doubt that potential exists.

Proving and disproving literally anything on an MA forum is ridiculous.
All it can do, is provide information with a certain amount of interactive discourse.

I'm confident that Angela and many members here can facillitate that.

[random]

Angela there is always method in madness, and I know I appreciate the hard work that goes into keeping this forum fairly sane. I think what I meant to say was at the begining...as I have become used to how the forum works I can see how important it is to let them (Trolls) show themselves for who or what they are.

[Mr. Precision]

angelag said:

For me knowing that the same information may be available elsewhere does not relinquish my own moral responsibility. Lots of people break the speed limit, that does not make it right, and nor does it make the consequences and repurcussions any less severe if one day you run over a child...

Lots of people have the knowledge on how to break the speed limit. They've been taught how to do it by their driving instructor. When one does, was the driving instructor morally responsible? There are many books on driving, each one instructs how to break the speed limit, does that make the author morally responsible when a reader breaks the limit, loses control and ploughs into a bus stop? Information and knowledge have no intent.

All of the karate techniques I'm aware of (apart from the basic punches and kicks) so far are primarily defensive and I'll bet almost all of them are, they require specific attacks by the opponent to function. They're also more difficult to work into a fight than punches, kicks, hair pulling and biting unless you've trained them into reflex.

[Sionnagh]

If someone decides to not write something because they'd feel bad if it was misused then it just means they have a conscience. They're taking responsibility for themself and their actions, something which seems to be all too rare these days.

IMO it should suffice to say that "I think this sequence in ... can be used for ..." or "I was taught..." where e.g. the technique is described as waki gatame then those who know what the technique is can follow the discussion. They have presumably been taught by someone and the writer can feel more comfortable that they've not had to spell out in-depth details of a technique which could easily be played around with and inflict hurt by accident. It also leaves the option for others to look it up, which might be a bit too much work to research how to execute the technique for someone to do for the sake of casual mucking-about.

It is probable that many posters know things they simply don't mention, and don't mention they know and haven't mentioned but just let it go past to the keeper.


Mick

[Mr. Precision]

sionnagh said:

If someone decides to not write something because they'd feel bad if it was misused then it just means they have a conscience. They're taking responsibility for themself and their actions, something which seems to be all too rare these days.

They're doing more than that though, they're taking responsibility for the actions of others. In this case where it's just the absence of information that's fair enough but in more general terms I believe very strongly that responsibility is personal. All adults take responsibility for their own actions, if you do something you take the consequences whatever they are. Only children and the mentally ill are not responsible for their actions, and they shouldn't be in society unsupervised.

[AngelaG]

And how do I ensure that children do not view this site? I can't! All participants must be over 13 but the majority of the site is open access for anyone to read.

I also do not think that saying that someone else should know better is enough. It's not only the person that may experiment with any given technique that I am worried about, it's the person they pick out to be uke.

[Aefibird]

I think that it would be better to hold back, just in case. We should all be able to be serious and dedicated MAists and be able to share info without any numpty getting hold of it and potentially using that info to do some serious damage to someone else, but we can't. Angela can't guarantee who is who on here. I say that I'm a 26 year old dedicated karateka from South Yorkshire who has also trained in other styles, but who on here really knows that?? I could be any age with any level of MA experience and you wouldn't know. I just hope that you all trust that I am who I say I am (.I really am a dedicated 26 year old karateka from S Yorks who has traines in other styles!)
There's things that I don't post on here, for multiple reasons. I just don't want people to know all about me if they don't have to. I ended up with a cyber stalker on another forum because of a comment I posted - quite innocent comment, but even so.
Maybe holding back a little on the bunkai explanations would be of benefit. If people want to continue discussions in depth then they could always use technical language (most of us seem to know Japanese terminology) or could use PM.
I dunno, it's not an easy thing to answer, and there probably isn't a right or wrong answer to it, just POVs and 'feelings'.

[Mr. Precision]

angelag said:

And how do I ensure that children do not view this site? I can't! All participants must be over 13 but the majority of the site is open access for anyone to read.

But in this example you're taking responsibility for another persons child. The responsibility lies with the parent.

angelag said:

I also do not think that saying that someone else should know better is enough. It's not only the person that may experiment with any given technique that I am worried about, it's the person they pick out to be uke.

But we can't take responsibility for other people's actions, to do that is the end of a free society. Rights and responsibilities are yin and yang, without one you can't have the other.