Why don't any of the blocks work?

[Mr. Precision]

If we're talking about an attacker arms length away throwing a (non karate) punch. I've been taking a pounding from a training partner in the name of science and have come to several conclusions.

1: None of the "blocks" are designed to work as advertised, certainly not if done remotely as taught. I think we've been over this before. Shuto, uchi simply don't work blocking to the outside, soto doesn't work blocking to the inside, they all take miles too long, gedan barai only half works if you're actually out of the way in the first place.

2: None of the "blocks" work in the other direction either, but for a different reason. Uchi, Shuto and Soto all did manage to block/divert the punches if blocking the opposite direction to taught, Shuto and uchi blocking to the inside, soto to the outside but Funakoshi's stated aim of maneuvering the opponent into a disadvantageous position didn't work at all, leaving me and the opponent in the same position I was before the punch, with the only retaliation option being a kick. It's not rocket science but it's taken me a day or so to figure out why... Stance. I've been moving too far.

A typical thrown punch designed to connect is arms length plus a few inches, 6 to 12, 18 if they're throwing their body into it. I've been dropping into back stance for most of them and moving 24 inches or more. My stances are too deep, the hooking motions of shuto and uchi aren't catching the opponent's arms at the right point, the outward part of the hooking motions need to connect with the opponent's arm on the other side of their elbow. I think for karate to work you need to match the depth of your stance to the opponent's.

I plan to try it out tomorrow, we'll see how badly I get beaten up.

[random]

There is a world of difference between basic techniques and applying these techniques, they become smaller, faster while maintaining the level of power leant through the practice of Kihon.

It seems fairly obvious that if someone is throwing a wild punch then stepping into a deep stance (sorry to other stances I do Shotokan) with any of the blocks one has in ones arsenal, the stances, blocks, punches, locks, throws, the stance you thrown them in develop, mutate almost. But before this can happen the basics have to be practiced, practiced and practiced again, until it becomes second nature to put ones arm in the way of a punch, even if that block becomes an amalgamation of two or three different blocks. By developing good strong deep stances when you need to root your feet to the ground they will become the ground. Practice, practice, practice.

[Mr. Precision]

random said:

There is a world of difference between basic techniques and applying these techniques, they become smaller, faster while maintaining the level of power leant through the practice of Kihon.

It seems fairly obvious that if someone is throwing a wild punch then stepping into a deep stance (sorry to other stances I do Shotokan) with any of the blocks one has in ones arsenal, the stances, blocks, punches, locks, throws, the stance you thrown them in develop, mutate almost.

If they're throwing a wild punch, they're still only stepping forward a few inches, 12 maybe 18 to connect. Dropping into a deep stance easily moves you back way more than this and they miss by miles anyway, an instant gyaku zuki doesn't work cos you're 6-12 inches too far away, shuto and uchi uke's though they may block the punch they don't give you an advantage for the same reason, too far away. I think this is why we see so many handbags at dawn fights on the police CCTV. Two guys in an after hours pub brawl standing arms length apart throwing punch after punch, all of them an inch short.

I've measured it, a very short (to me) kokutsu stance moves me back 15 inches. A typical stance but fairly shallow stance about 24 inches and what I'd consider a deep stance 30 inches. So unless the opponent steps forward by about that distance they're going to miss. I think this is why the other shorin based styles use much shorter stances, their back/cat foot stances seem to be 18-24 inches rather than 24-30.

[random]

From a scientific point of view you are trying to measure a finite distance and making a stance prescriptive, its an art not a science. If you are to make it a science then you have to take into context every parameter and that is impossible. The example you give doesn’t make much sense to me (sorry) who takes a tape measure to a fight.

I should try and learn the art before trying to dissect it in this way. Especially I have already said, the blocks in a real fight don’t have names. They are a learned conditioned response to an outside stimulus. They adapt and bend to that stimulus, which in itself is not a measurable quantity. This isn’t choreography, it is organic and alive, always moving and should be treated as such, you are trying to put a prescriptive, constrictive set of measurements somewhere they don’t belong. In basics these things are important to develop good strong technique, but the student has to develop, beyond Kihon.

[searcher2]

Firstly: who said they were "blocks" - the term "uke" means "to receive".
Second: using them to smash away incoming straight punches means you are facing someone doing karate.
Thirdly: the flinch reflex kind of block is the only one worth practicing, as it's the only one you will use. The others are methods of dealing with limbs that have already been thrown.
Fourth: the uke techniques do work as advertised; by stepping forwards with your whole bodyweight (front stance), by pulling someone on to you (back stance) and by dropping someone down (horse stance). It just depends on who is doing the advertising. If you mean the kind of training that is done in most dojo then it's only about kumite anyway, but as you mention pubs then it's got to be about self-defence. Arm-bar up, rm-bar to the inside, arm-bar to the outside, arm-bar down - the techniques work just fine.

[Mr. Precision]

searcher2 said:

Firstly: who said they were "blocks" - the term "uke" means "to receive".
Second: using them to smash away incoming straight punches means you are facing someone doing karate.

First, I know what uke means. Angela kindly enlightened me on that one.

Second, I wasn't using them against straight karate punches, he was throwing swings as well as hooks to body and head, a few non karate straight punches too, mostly to head & chest, standing natural stance a fraction less than arms length away, leaning into them moving forward pretty much as you would if you weren't trained. I think I mentioned they were non karate punches. I was attempting to receive the punches from natural stance using various of the "blocks" in various different manners.

searcher2 said:

Thirdly: the flinch reflex kind of block is the only one worth practicing, as it's the only one you will use. The others are methods of dealing with limbs that have already been thrown.

I have a hypothesis that the "blocks" are extentions to the flinch reflex. i.e. What you do after you've flinched and deflected the punch. Hence the block to the inside with shuto, uchi and block to the outside with soto.

searcher2 said:

Arm-bar up, rm-bar to the inside, arm-bar to the outside, arm-bar down - the techniques work just fine.

Sure, it's easy to stick an arm in the way but it's not how any of the "blocks" are executed as trained in kihon or kata. If they were that simple, 80% of the movement would be superfluous, why bother?

"The principle objective of all blocking is to maneuver the opponent into a disadvantageous position" - Funakoshi, Karate-do Kyohan.

I think this is an important statement and it's why I'm trying out these blocks the way I am. Sticking an arm in the way doesn't fulfil the stated objective of maneuvering the opponent.

[Mr. Precision]

random said:

From a scientific point of view you are trying to measure a finite distance and making a stance prescriptive, its an art not a science. If you are to make it a science then you have to take into context every parameter and that is impossible. The example you give doesn’t make much sense to me (sorry) who takes a tape measure to a fight.

We're biological machines which conform to the laws of physics, we can only accelerate, decelerate, move according to the masses and forces we can exert. Sure, it's an art but there's science there as well. People can't hit if you move back further than they move forward.

random said:

I should try and learn the art before trying to dissect it in this way. Especially I have already said, the blocks in a real fight don’t have names. They are a learned conditioned response to an outside stimulus. They adapt and bend to that stimulus, which in itself is not a measurable quantity. This isn’t choreography, it is organic and alive, always moving and should be treated as such, you are trying to put a prescriptive, constrictive set of measurements somewhere they don’t belong.

I'm trying to understand why something works or doesn't. If I'm right and the reason I'm unable to gain advantage from an uchi uke because I'm too far away I can change the distance I move when I execute it. I've found the karate term for what I'm looking for.

It's "maai".

random said:

In basics these things are important to develop good strong technique, but the student has to develop, beyond Kihon.

And then throw it away? It doesn't make sense to me.

[AngelaG]

If you are going to meet a strike, whatever it may be, with a hard block, whatever that might be, you had better hope the following:
* You are stronger than your opponent
* You have denser bones than your opponent
* They didn't put everything they had in to their attack
* They don't follow up with an immediate attack.

I'm also intrigued as to why you are dropping into stance while performing these "blocks". A stance is a means to achieving an end, and is really only useful if you have your opponent, or at least an appendage under your control. To pull them and manipulate them as you wish. That way you can apply your bodyweight to the technique. Standing in a stance for the sake of being in the stance supplies no benefits and in fact probably means that you just can't move as fast.

So a punch comes in. The typical Saturday night haymaker. The first thing you need to do is not get hit. If it catches you on the side of the jaw the fight is probably already won. Even if you don't get stunned or even worse KOed you will be starting the fight from a disadvantage and constantly be striving to try and get on an even keel, let alone gain the upper hand. The best way to avoid being hit is to not be where the weapon (in this case the fist) is. So you have to move. If you move away the punch will continue its arc and their side may be shown to you, but you'd have to be quick to get back in, close the distance you have created, and hit them before they come in with another attack. Alternatively you can move into them, into the centre of the arc. Again you need to be quick to retaliate, but this time you don't need to close the distance, you are already there. If you block and then retaliate you are giving time for them to come in with another attack, and run the risk of trading blows. So instead make the defence and the attack one movement. Shift/parry and use the other hand to strike.

To stay and meet a hard punch with a hard strike means it becomes a battle of strength. Maybe you will win, or maybe you've come up against someone a lot stronger than you. So it's best to make sure the odds are on your side. Move, redirect the punch, control their strike. They've given you a hand as a present, make use of it. Use muchimi to take hold of them and manipulate them to where you want them to be.

Have you ever investigated the soft block? It's effective, when done right it means that a small opponent can block the punch of a much stronger person. Once the basic concepts have been grasped it's simple to use. Furthermore it has the added bonus that it is also very painful, so you are not just blocking, you are blocking and striking with the same hand!

Furthermore think outside the box. Every one of the techniques can be used as a strike, a bar etc.

Sure, it's easy to stick an arm in the way but it's not how any of the "blocks" are executed as trained in kihon or kata. If they were that simple, 80% of the movement would be superfluous, why bother?

It is how they are trained in kata etc. Moreso than it is in kumite in fact. Can you execute a full sweeping soto uke as a block before your opponent gets a straight punch in? You may find your hard pushed - especially if they are moving forward and you backward. So you don't like the concept of an arm bar - what about an arm break you may well want to pull your arm back a bit further and use your hips to generate the extra power. What about age uke as a strike into the neck......

[random]

Mr Precision, firstly learn some physics and biology if you are going to apply them to you ma training, equal and opposite.

If you have moved far enough away not to respond with a technique then carry on running away, the best defence is not to be around someone who will hurt you.

Who said anything about throwing away Kihon? It is from that that one grows (with kata and kumite obviously).

The techniques you are describing don’t have names they are just a trained response.

Again try and learn your art before trying to learn you art.

[AngelaG]

I would also add that if using any of the "uke" techniques as a "block" then you have automatically discarded 50% of your technique! What 50% is that? The hikite hand. Why pull your arm back to your waist if you are just blocking, when it would be much better served up high as a guard. Put something in that hand, such as your opponent's arm and it begins to look a lot more like the actual technique - and makes a lot more sense!

[Mr. Precision]

Hokay, got seriously pasted.

With the shorter stances far more of the punches connected, but I think I might be able to see a role for the hikite in the blocks. Towards the end of the practice I was finding that catching/guiding the punch with the off hand may give an opportunity to trap or lock the punching arm.

[Mr. Precision]

angelag said:

So instead make the defence and the attack one movement. Shift/parry and use the other hand to strike.

This is pretty much the conclusion I was coming to. To the outright amusement of my training partner. What I'm doing with this is analysing the blocks to find out how the various applications of them might work. None of the ways i've done them so far have really put the opponent to disadvantage though it was possible to deflect them. As you say, it was becoming obvious that hikite could have a larger role to play though I didn't have time to try it out and my training partner could barely throw a straight punch with laughing.

angelag said:

It is how they are trained in kata etc. Moreso than it is in kumite in fact. Can you execute a full sweeping soto uke as a block before your opponent gets a straight punch in? You may find

No, completely useless in that regard but it was reflexive and effective against the swings. It does seem to be either a break or a strike with hikite performing the blocking, not a block against a straight punch.

[AngelaG]

I have to say, I'm still not sure what you are trying to achieve... apart from being punched in the head.

[Mr. Precision]

angelag said:

I have to say, I'm still not sure what you are trying to achieve... apart from being punched in the head.

Bunkai of the standard blocks. In particular in what ways they might put the attacking opponent at a disadvantage. And I didn't get punched in the head that often. I'll see if the bruises show in a few days.

[random]

It does seem an awful lot of effort just to get a punch in the head!