Taking it on the chin...

[steelwire1]

PS, have you and Angela watched any of the vids on Hatton's site yet? Let me know what you think. Haha, crystal,

Nice one,

Steve

'chow gar family student wef 1985'

[AngelaG]

Yeah I watched some of the videos, but I fail to see your point. I've also watched several boxing matches over the years, as it's a sport I quite enjoy watching. Boxers have adapted well to their rules in their tournaments, and the top ones become very good at what they do. So I fail to see the issue. If you want to discuss this properly do so, instead of trying to amuse yourself with cheap cracks behind a facade.

[steelwire1]

Angela mate, my point is that I think that these boxers have no power due to their hunched stance.

Think of it like this, as Sifu Tony Leung always likes to say: you got to keep your heavenly column erect. If you allow it to hunch over, ie fail to suspend the crown point, then how is the chi going to flow? How are you going to channel ging into your strikes? Clear as crystal mate.

Thats the way I look at it, as it were. I thought you guys agreed with me? There aint no cheap cracks behind any facade here mates, so to speak..what are you trying to say?

I was just answering your original question which was this:

"I thought maybe we could have a discussion on the pros and cons of fighting with the back straight and chin up, as we are taught to do in karate; versus curving the back and dipping the chin and tucking it in, as they do in boxing. Which would you use in a real fight, and what is your rationale for your choice?"

Nice one,

Steve

'chow gar family student wef 1985'

[thingy]

I think we all know that boxers have power in their punches, it'd be daft otherwise.

So, the situation boxers find themselves in in the ring though means that they're not throwing full power punches all the time, since they need to preserve themselves/their energy over a long period of time, and often a fight is won due to a process of wearing your opponent down.

Anyone see the yawn inducing Audley Harrison fight the other night? Sure, I wouldn't want to be punched by him, but you could hardly say he was spending his time hitting out full power punches. This style of fighting doesn't so much fit in with the 'one punch one kill' idea of hitting with as full intent as you can every time you hit in order to put the opponent out of action as soon as you possibly can.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I'd guess most people would agree with that bit of writing above.

So, you're down the kebab shop and someone starts a fight with you, you don't want to spend half an hour punching away at your attackers arms until they are so dead they can't really punch or defend themselves very well any more. For one thing, half an hour is a silly amount of time to be fighting,and for another, this may well be a tactic that can work for some boxers while boxing, but it's perhaps not the best kebab shop fight tactic (nor is waving a traffic cone at someone, it would seem).

So it's still a valid question, if you can agree that the hunching thing is for self-preservation... By hunching, you gain in self-preservation, but lose a little in power - perhaps? I don't know the answer to this, but I'd say that it's at least possible. Boxers wouldn't go for something that severely lost them power, but if it was a just a little, and if the advantages outweighed the power loss then it becomes worth it.

Thinking about it, when boxers see their opponent severely weakened and go in for a big finish, do they come slightly more upright in their posture, or not?

[pasmith]

We all know that boxers hit with power (despite Angela seeing a crap one at Seni).
I try and look at things logically.
Everything I do in a fight is a compromise. When you attack you always expose a target. The fastest way to hit is not the hardest. Everything is a compromise between power and speed, offense and defense, mobility and stability.
Average Joe in the street is a head hunter. The main attack you will face for real is a barrage of right hand punches to your head (especially if you are a male).
Anything we can do to overcome this type of attack is a good thing.
We can all surely agree on that?
Therefore ask yourself this question?
With someone trying to take your head off do you want to drop it a bit, hide your chin behind your shoulder and bring up your hands? Or do you want to lift your head up and hope that you block what he throws but gain a little in power when you attack him (if that is actually what happens)?
Personally I keep my head down, practice hitting with power from there and hope for the best (until someone can convince me to do otherwise).
Also I try to remember that power is only part of the package. Just as important (or more so in some instances) are mobility (of yourself), accuracy (of your strikes), aggression, bottle, etc.

[AngelaG]

pasmith said:

We all know that boxers hit with power (despite Angela seeing a crap one at Seni).

I wasn't on the end of his punches, and he was a big guy, so I suspect his punches were hard, but I still maintain that (with this guy at least) he was blocking a lot of potential energy. But then when I see people like Amir Khan at work he doesn't fight the same way - so maybe it's just that the heavyweights know they have the muscles so they can rely on that? I dunno - I'm not a boxer

[maskedman]

angelag said:

pasmith said:

We all know that boxers hit with power (despite Angela seeing a crap one at Seni).

I wasn't on the end of his punches, and he was a big guy, so I suspect his punches were hard, but I still maintain that (with this guy at least) he was blocking a lot of potential energy. But then when I see people like Amir Khan at work he doesn't fight the same way - so maybe it's just that the heavyweights know they have the muscles so they can rely on that? I dunno - I'm not a boxer

Perhaps I could explain....boxers expand alot of energy....more so than there eastern fighting cousins......all power comes from the feet....from being grounded....to see the power you must watch the feet....I would say that boxing punches...when excecuted correctly....well they are bastards to take...like a TKD kick...but from watching I think that people may just not be taking into account the ability of his opponent to take a hiding!

*bows respectfully*

[AngelaG]

Hmmm I still think that size is probably a factor in the way they move too. Watching someone like Prince Naseem in the ring was completely different than watching people like Tyson. Necessity perhaps?

[kataguurl78]

I think its safer to keep your hands up near your face in a street fight because, as a woman, it would be horrible to get hit in the face by a strong man.

Hitting back I suppose it is inevitable that you will expose yourself a bit. That's why you should try to hit as hard as you can. I agree with Angela that tension held in the shoulders can lessen power in punching.

From watching good boxers on TV, most of them look relaxed when hitting hard, especially the lighter fighters like the guy in those clips. I think that when a boxer is trying to finish a stunned opponent he will usually stand a bit straighter, drop his hands, and plant his feet flat to get more power

Oooosssss

[AngelaG]

Yeah, watching a good boxer light, like Amir Kahn, is great. The guy is extremely fluid and seems to by enjoying himself as well. I prefer watching boxing like that rather than 2 heavyweights standing toe to toe slugging it out.

[kataguurl78]

He's great! I watched him in the olympics and I was cheering him all the way

[whitewarlock]

Jumping into these discussions,

As some have guessed, the main reason for hunching forward is when you 'enter' into a person. If you look, you'll see that as a boxer gains distance from their adversary, they straighten up, then hunch back again when entering a clinch. This is both a defensive action of 'closing-up' to protect the chin, the ribs, and the solar-plexus, as well as an offensive action of bringing both arms to tie up the adversary, of posing their weight on the adversary so as to tire them, and as a means to lean forward so as to ensure they are not knocked over and back, then given a chasing rounder. Hunching also helps to deliver powerful hooks, uppercuts, and rounders, which are most effective when in a clinch, or when just breaking from a clinch.

Also, hunching when close-in presents more of the body to make physical contact with the adversary, and thus increases the touch-sensitivity, which in turn increases the ability of the boxer to predict and counter the adversary's actions. And, because of the added sensitivity, and the shortened distance, the boxer is able to better absorb and/or avoid strikes... thus turning the adversary's actions into mostly energy-consuming flounderings.

A great leap in understanding needs to occur here. Boxing is not like a real confrontation. Yes, there are rounds, and the goal is to ensure you do not tire yourself needlessly within the first few rounds, but this is only the most basic of concepts. Far deeper is the intention of reading your opponent while attempting to limit what you present to him. It is, in no uncertain terms, a chess game of the fists, requiring careful and guarded openings that provide a strong control of the ring's center (or board's center, in chess), carefully timed attacks, distractions, and redirections with the intentions of gaining the opportunity to present a series of driving actions to finish off your opponent.

If you learn chess, you will gain an insight into the machinations of boxing, for they employ similar principles. Indeed, this is how i learned. While studying boxing, i also was directed by my father to study chess. He helped me to note the similarities and provided metaphors for the various tactics. And like the rules in a game of chess, the rules of a boxing match significantly limit random variables. I.e., you have few targets, a limited combat arena, and a limited but flexible array of weapons at your disposal that also serves as your defense.

Now, a boxer outside of the ring, if he hasn't fallen into the debilitating problem of being ring-programmed, presents a very different approach in a life encounter. It depends quite a bit on the boxer, and on what other skills he has, that is clear... but what is not clear is that a boxer will definitely present the power of his strikes in a life encounter. As well, since the assailant, the adversary, most likely has not trained in being able to parry, weave or slip from a strike, the boxer's strike will most likely be felt to full effect. And, since the boxer is not inclined to hunch under such circumstances, he would be better prepared to present distanced power strikes.

Hope this helped

[whitewarlock]

Additional note:

In olden days, clinches were either 'not allowed,' or throwing the person was allowed. In either case, hunching-over served little purpose. Hunching serves well for when you are in a clinch. It has little use if the clinch, as an institution, is not allowed to exist in its present state.

[AngelaG]

Thanks WhiteWarlock! It's great to get some educated insight into all this.

[thingy]

Yes what a good answer.

This is a bit of a side issue really but I remember one top boxer, forgotten who but I vagually think it might have been Chris Eubank, was instructed by his trainer to learn to play the guitar to aid his boxing. Not only have I forgotten the boxer, I've forgotten the reasons too, but it seemed frightfully interesting at the time.

Thank you for taking the time to read this informative post.