MOVED: SEARCHER1: Kiai!

[Karate Resource]

Searcher1 wrote:

"Everything together"
"Spirit yell"
"Oy"

Any reason for the differnt sounds that people make?

Any reason why they should be making particular sounds?

Any reason why some kata (Arakaki Seisan) require a particular intonation for their kiai?

Which particular sounds allegedly cause which particular results?

The pulling apart of something for analysis is bunkai so this would seem to be the most relevant topic board for this subject.

John

[Karate Resource]

RDKI wrote:

Hi John,
Elemental Sound Projection is something that i have heard about reasonably recently and haveb been playing" with a bit, especially hard (yang) sound for yin attack and vice versa. I did one really light (honest!) technique on my student John Dyer which had a pretty big effect. I've asked John to join this forum, maybe he can comment further?

I have ordered a video tape of Gary Rooks, 7th Dan, who has made a study of this over a number of years and will be interested to see what it contains. You can read a description at

www.yorkkarate.com-articles-soundprojection

So when are we gonna get togoether again by the way???
Martyn

[Aefibird]

hmm, sounds interesting! (no pun intended... :

The video looks like it might be worth watching - have you recieved it and watched it yet?

[AngelaG]

Reasons why I Kiai:

I was told to For the first few months of my karate this was pretty much the only reason I did it. Then….new reasons evolved:

It’s psychologically lifting for me. Sometimes when the energy appears to be draining, techniques are getting weak and there is a lack of spirit I find that a good kiai can really get me back on track.

It can be psychologically damaging to my opponent. If you are swinging in punch after punch sometimes you find that your attacker becomes complacent, if you suddenly stick a kiai in there it tends to keep them on their toes. I know it has happened to me; there’s not a lot more terrifying than a 6’ plus bloke bearing down on you with an elbow to the face, while emitting a war cry at full volume.

It stops me holding me breath, and helps teach me the correct time to breathe out (not 2 seconds after finishing my technique).

it can build team moral. While everyone is doing a load of techniques together my personal opinion is that it can really help everyone to carry on and work together if you can get a nice group kiai.

It does appear to make my techniques stronger, deeper and harder. I have no idea why, but if it works why let that stop me?

Apparently (so I’ve been told) my kiai has recently changed. The reason for this?? I have no idea! I didn’t particularly notice it had…. although I had noticed the kiai does seem to change depending on what technique I am doing… and the reason I am doing it

[RDKI]

Hi Rachel,
I have indeed received and watched the video. The hakutsuru kata are beautiful and I will learn them and bring them in at a higher level at my club.

The elemental sound projection stuff on there is simply amazing - but I'd have to see or experience it 1st hand as I did with a no touch knockout from Evan Pantazi recently.

There is one bit where a guy does a double lapel grab, thus lighting his own yin/yang/fire/metal meridians on his arm. Rooks just seemed to inhale and the guy flaked out like a ragdoll. Worth looking into i think.

It even seemed to add loads to grapples. from the explanation on the tape, inhaling robs your opponent of energy and the appropriate elemental sound according to what you are doing/attacking increases the energy transfer from tori to uke. I may be making a trip to America next year sometime to train with Evan Pantazi, Jim Corn and Gary Rooks if possible - shouold be interesting if it comes off, but if you want to see some video clips take a look at www.kyusho.com

All the best,
Martyn

[searcher2]

No touch knock-outs and the power of a kiai stunning birds from trees is all very well for demonstrations, but while I'm trying to impact your head with any pointy part of my anatomy?

The question remains:
Particular intonations for Kiai: Why?

A lot is often (not) said about intonation. I've seen this done, I've heard about that done. What sounds do what? Why? Combat effective?

Let me know what you think.

John

[shotopants]

Elemental sound projection? What? What!!!

Is this to be the next "big thing"?

No Touch KO? What? What!!! The NTKO debate has been done to death on forums elsewhere and I think the NTKO is in the same box as elemental projection.

Both of these "gadgets" are all very interesting, but I have a sneaky feeling they'll get you in real trouble in a confrontation if you're not carefull.

[demonwarrior]

Perhaps it's a good idea to learn everything; and then later choose what to discard?

[shotopants]

Or to walk before you can run...

[AngelaG]

I have been looking around on the Internet for more information about the use of kiai and changing intonation to have different effects. The Internet is supposedly a massive source of information, with access to millions and millions of sites you'd think I'd be able to pick something up. Apparently not! Many sites refer to playing with the kiai, and different kiai having different effects, and changing them for harming or healing etc. but none seem to go into any detail. Nobody says what each intonation does, no one explains why you get different effects or why. Which makes me think that either a) the majority of sites don't know what they are talking about or b) someone, somewhere is jealously guarding secrets.

Has anyone else got any information on this? Either web-based or the good old fashioned paper book based will do!

[Sasori Te]

I will be contacting Sensei Rooks in the near future. He lives 4 hours from me in Cincinatti, Ohio. I'll let you guys know how it goes. I've heard some good things about him. Here's the way that I and my teacher view all of these subjects. They're all very novel ideas and are good to know, but until I can use them effectively and quickly, they are simply something else to study. I wouldn't ever pin my life on a yell or a pressure point. Here's an article that I found on the web recently:

Regular Column by Grandmaster Jürg Ziegler (9th Dan Sin Moo Hapkido; Headmaster and Representative for all European, Middle East and Eurasien Countries for Dojunim Ji, Han Jae (10th Dan, true Founder of Hapkido), President of the EUROPEAN SIN MOO HAPKIDO ASSOCIATION - ESMHA - with members in over 32 Countries world-wide).
Dear Readers, I hope you enjoyed the last months column of the "9 Rules" philosophy in Sin Moo Hapkido. This month I would like to continue with "Sound Meditation".
Sound Meditation
Sound plays an important part in meditation and practice. There are sounds for killing, sounds for healing and sounds for giving energy. There are five different types of sounds: cunning, musical or pleasant sounds, healing sounds, energy sounds and killing sounds. As an example, there is the "MMM" sound made with lips closed, teeth closed, teeth vibrating. When this sound is made softly and gently it is very calming. When made very strongly it is a killing sound (attacking the brain).
Six sounds are used for fixing the Body. Each sound is to be made as long as possible. The sounds are made on the exhale and should be made at least eight seconds, but the longer the better.
The first fixing or healing sound is "chae". Inhale deeply and then exhale making the sound. This sound is like what you hear when a tire goes flat. The "chae" sound works to heal the kidneys. As you breathe in deeply, visualise the kidney (like a bubble in a cartoon). Inhale, visualise, exhale "chae". Kidney problems can also be diagnosed by cloudy foamy urine.
"Whooo" is the sound used to correct digestive problems. Breathe in, visualise the stomach, exhale powerfully with the mouth in a "O". This is not a small tight "O" with the mouth - the mouth is open fairly wide behind the O-shaped lips.
The large and small intestines are fixed by the "ssi" sound. Teeth are tightly clamped, the "s" is prolonged. Inhale, visualise the large or small intestine, exhale "ssi". This sound can heal the symptom of diarrhoea.
Heart problems can be fixed by making the "huu" sound. The mouth is open and shaped in a large "O" while blowing "huu". Someone likened this sound to blowing your hot breath on a mirror. High or low blood pressure can be corrected by breathing in, calming down and exhaling "huu".
Liver problems can be helped by making the "shhh" sound while the mouth is held in an "O" shape. Liver disfunction can be diagnosed by noting the colour of the urine: too yellow a colour means liver problems.
The sixth organ to be healed by sound is the lungs. Inhale, visualise, and as you exhale make a "sss" sound, releasing the air through the teeth. Note that there are three sounds that are quite similar: "chae" for the kidneys, "ssi" for the intestines, and now "sss" for the lungs. "sss" is the tightest of these three sounds, made with the stomach muscles contracted.
These sounds are very important. In order to get the most out of meditation and practice, the internal organs must be strong and healthy. Sounds can be used to enhance physical skills. "Gam" (pronounced as in "come") is used to bring your Ki Power up when you pick up something heavy. The sound must be made strongly. The "g" in gam is almost a "k" sound. "Um" is used in throwing. So, these two words can be combined into "ga-um" for picking up and throwing an object.

[AngelaG]

This is great Sasori Te... Many thanks!

Angela

[bunkaiseeker]

We do quite some work on breathing (we're in direct line from Sensei Nishiyama and his best student Avi Rokah) but not quite to the extent some of the other posts suggested. And, to me, they do seem a bit on the esoteric side.

My take on kiai: I came to karate from bodybuilding. If you have ever attended a gym, you will have heard the grunts people emit when the weights are getting heavy. All the way from deep, deep down in the lower stomach. The kiai is basically the same, only much faster. Not a "shout" but a high-speed version of the abdominal grunt.

Why it helps with power - we get taught (and there are current scientific studies confirming this) that the center of power for *every* sport is in a muscular cage built by the deep abdominals, the pelvic floor, some deep-layer back muscles I forgot the name of and the muscles just below the diaphragma. Apparently top athletes are people who have a natural ability to move well coordinated from this center. By the way, these are the same muscle groups that ensure good posture and which are targeted by pilates.

So, basically, the kiai from the deep stomach means you involve these muscles - or the other way round - it is created by your use of these muscles with full force.

Different intonations: we learn about two different types of exhalation - "away from you" and "towards you". To exhale "away" imagine pushing something, to exhale "towards you" imagine pulling on a rope. Try it and watch how your stomach moves slightly different!

The sound itself: there should be mostly vowels because whenever you have any "rrrr"s in it you tend to involve your vocal chords too much. I was also told this by an opera singer. As one karate teacher put it: think of the names we give our dogs - ones with lots of vowels because they can be shouted best.

Putting the last two points together, I find that the "natural kiai" for a technique without snap-back, like a tsuki or a kekomi is something like "aaa" with an exhalation away from me. For a snap-back technique like eg. mae geri, the exhalation "turns around" with the technique - first away from you, then towards you and results in a kiai more like "eeiiaaa".

[AngelaG]

bunkaiseeker said:

My take on kiai: I came to karate from bodybuilding. If you have ever attended a gym, you will have heard the grunts people emit when the weights are getting heavy. All the way from deep, deep down in the lower stomach.

When you watch the athletics nearly all the people that participate in the throwing sports do some sort of kiai as well.

[bunkaiseeker]

Oh my god, memories from the 80s come back and haunt me. They introduced better microphones into sports back then and suddenly you could hear the tennis players grunt and "kiai". Which soo took away from the perceived tranquility and nobility of the sport. I remember a lot of people complaining about the grunts being "gross" and not becoming for a tennis player!! With the knowledge I have now, this notion of course seems absolutely ridiculous.