Favourite bunkai for gedan barai

[random]

It isn’t the technique you learn it is the technique you use, there is the classic down ward block that is I guess one of the first things someone is taught, then it develops or at least it should.

I never consider anything to be standard when it comes to block and strikes, this is a stumbling block which many people fall into, they never take enough time to synthesise with their art and so what you do see is a very basic understanding of what they are doing, I think that you are right in thinking that for many it would be the first technique they would go for with a front kick, but for many of us it wouldn’t.

[pasmith]

To be honest there is lots of talk of gedan barai being rubbish for blocking kicks, that your arm would break if you did etc. but I have found that's exactly how I do use it most of time. And I've never had my arm broken.
Granted it becomes more of a sliding parry rather than a bone on bone hard "block" (and I don't chamber it) but it is still essentially a gedan barai in spirit. If someone front kicks you can parry it so the kick slides up your forearm and misses your body. I also use it to help mid section round kicks on their way. Let the kick pass by and then gedan barai the back of the leg so they end up with their back to you and open for a counter.
That's about it for me really.
I still feel that the prevelance of gedan barai is out of proportion to its usefullness.

[darkstar]

To be honest there is lots of talk of gedan barai being rubbish for blocking kicks, that your arm would break if you did etc. but I have found that's exactly how I do use it most of time. And I've never had my arm broken.

no i dont think that at all, it's quite a good block if the kick is actually the only thing you need be worried about.

it's just that often it's not.

[AngelaG]

pasmith said:

To be honest there is lots of talk of gedan barai being rubbish for blocking kicks, that your arm would break if you did etc. but I have found that's exactly how I do use it most of time. And I've never had my arm broken.
Granted it becomes more of a sliding parry rather than a bone on bone hard "block" (and I don't chamber it) but it is still essentially a gedan barai in spirit. If someone front kicks you can parry it so the kick slides up your forearm and misses your body. I also use it to help mid section round kicks on their way. Let the kick pass by and then gedan barai the back of the leg so they end up with their back to you and open for a counter.
That's about it for me really.
I still feel that the prevelance of gedan barai is out of proportion to its usefullness.

I disagree. I think that it's the most basic technqiues that you can learn the most, therefore we are immediately introduced to techniques such as a straight punch, and the basic uke techniques, which can be used as simple bars as well as strikes. These techniques are simple to perform and therefore any mistakes or lack of understanding of the important principles that make them effective are glaringly obvious. These include using stances as transitory positions, effective use of hips, centreline, flow, circular movements, waveforms etc. Although it can be used as a strike down into the thigh to jam a kick as it chambers I still think this is not a great way of utilising the technique.

Complicated technqiues are all well and good but if you're having trouble with simple basics such as punches and basic uke waza then, to be honest, they are probably going to be useless.

[AngelaG]

darkstar said:

? maybe you do it different? doesnt seem like much of a standard attack technique? ..and there are many (Chinese mainly) styles that would just love you to cross your arm across your body ala the higher part of Gedan Barai and would really punish you for doing so.

i'd be relatively confident most karateka could be tempted into using it against low or leg kicks though?

You bet we do it different. And as for the Chinese styles punishing me for crossing the arms across the body, well that would depend where their body was situated in relation to the technique. I wouldn't be standing in fornt of them randomly doing the technique waiting for them to attack. Crossing the body can be used as an effective tool if you know what you're doing, and choose to do it at the right time. But yes, if forced to do it as a part of someone else's strategy it can be dangerous. It all comes down to doing what you intend to do, rather than what the opponent wants you to do.

[darkstar]

angelag said:

darkstar said:

? maybe you do it different? doesnt seem like much of a standard attack technique? ..and there are many (Chinese mainly) styles that would just love you to cross your arm across your body ala the higher part of Gedan Barai and would really punish you for doing so.

i'd be relatively confident most karateka could be tempted into using it against low or leg kicks though?

You bet we do it different. And as for the Chinese styles punishing me for crossing the arms across the body, well that would depend where their body was situated in relation to the technique. I wouldn't be standing in fornt of them randomly doing the technique waiting for them to attack. Crossing the body can be used as an effective tool if you know what you're doing, and choose to do it at the right time. But yes, if forced to do it as a part of someone else's strategy it can be dangerous. It all comes down to doing what you intend to do, rather than what the opponent wants you to do.

interesting.

can you elaborate on how it can be used as an attack, and what position your opponent would be in relative to you to enable that?

also, if not this, what is your preferred method for dealing with incoming low to mid roundhouse style kicks?

thanks

[Aefibird]

Whilst gedan barai might be taught as a "block" to many beginners, there's a lot more to it than that. I personally love using it as a groin strike. ;D

There's plenty of ways of dealing with kicking without just standing in a basic stance and blocking gedan barai. Despite the popular image of (shotokan) karate, we're not all as thick as that and we do get taught other techniques you know....

Gedan barai can either be a great technique or a hideous one depending on the situation. It isn't going to be effective in every situation and a lot of it depends on the position of your body and the position of your opponents body. If I'm stood square on to my opponent then it makes a big difference in what techniques I can use, as opposed to when I'm fighting someone stood side on or even behind me.

Same with Gedan Barai. Good in certain situations, but you just have to use your head and think about the technique and application, rather than just relying on the old chestnut of "gedan barai for blocking a kick".

For a start, Tai Sabaki has to come in there somewhere, let alone all the other factors that need to be considered when using any technique.

[darkstar]

aefibird said:

There's plenty of ways of dealing with kicking without just standing in a basic stance and blocking gedan barai. Despite the popular image of (shotokan) karate, we're not all as thick as that and we do get taught other techniques you know....

lol, i'm aware there are many other ways, i just enquired which you guys preferred?

as for groin strikes, possibly for a sideways attack i suppose? not frontwards or from behind?

[AngelaG]

The problem with using gedan barai to "block" an incoming kick with an outgoing arm is that it will be met full force, bone on bone, and the smaller bone is going to give way. The way to decrease risk of this is to come into the kick and jam it as it chambers on the thigh, there being less force that far in. However if you can meet it with your arm it might be just as well to keep the hands up and jam it with your leg instead. That way both hands are free to protect the head, and can also be used to strike their head, neck, upper torso etc. If you want to insist on using arms I would much prefer to shift and use nagashi to redirect/parry the kick in the direction it's already travelling.

For a low roundhouse the shin can also be used to block, with a triangle block.

Personally I think the best thing to do is practice moving and shifting to put yourself in a safe place, whilst having all your weapons directed at the opponent. Whether you shift in/out/around is up to personal preference and the situation at the time.

[darkstar]

angelag said:

The problem with using gedan barai to "block" an incoming kick with an outgoing arm is that it will be met full force, bone on bone, and the smaller bone is going to give way.

..not forgetting that the moment you lower that arm you're wide open to the cross or hook that was possibly coming next anyway.

The way to decrease risk of this is to come into the kick and jam it as it chambers on the thigh, there being less force that far in.

lol ..move into their elbow range with your arm down out of protection range for your face you mean?

However if you can meet it with your arm it might be just as well to keep the hands up and jam it with your leg instead.

agreed, but if you go to jam it (say a right low roundhouse) with your left leg and they switch and kick the inside of your right leg whilst youre standing on it alone, you'll know all about that.

Personally I think the best thing to do is practice moving and shifting to put yourself in a safe place, whilst having all your weapons directed at the opponent. Whether you shift in/out/around is up to personal preference and the situation at the time.

it's obviously always better to not be in the way if possible, but sometimes it's not.

out of interest how many of you have sparred with boxers, thai boxers, kung fu guys, etc, and what were your experiences? ..lets leave grapplers out of it for now and stick to striking styles.

[Aefibird]

So, seen as you've disagreed with everything Angel and others have written about gedan barai and blocking kicks, which method would YOU use to block a kick?

[AngelaG]

lol ..move into their elbow range with your arm down out of protection range for your face you mean

LOL, nicely taken out of context considering I had already said that this would not be an ideal use for me. Sometimes people just read what they want to read though, right?

Seriously I think you're just trolling, as you have no interest in a genuine exchange of thoughts and ideas.

[darkstar]

aefibird said:

So, seen as you've disagreed with everything Angel and others have written about gedan barai and blocking kicks, which method would YOU use to block a kick?

you see.. here is the crunch. as a heavily MT influenced fighter with low kicks i instinctively just raise my knee and let the kick hit my shin (wouldnt recommend this if you havent done the shin conditioning, you wont be able to stand on it when you put it down again)

if it's coming in higher i'll drop my elbow slightly to cover ribs with forearm. if it's lower than that they'll kick my elbow or hip bone, which'll likely hurt them more than me. but mainly you just ignore what theyre trying to do to you and get through to finish them.

the point is that in a "real" fight (either ring, street or throwdown style) you dont get to block much, and have to just try to limit damage whilst you get on with taking them out. if they see that you have a strong blocking instinct, any good fighter will feint and exploit it in seconds.

and this...

LOL, nicely taken out of context considering I had already said that this would not be an ideal use for me. Sometimes people just read what they want to read though, right?

Seriously I think you're just trolling, as you have no interest in a genuine exchange of thoughts and ideas.

..is hilarious. ;D ...you lot have not once said hello, welcome or any such thing and have been trolling me constantly with words or your g@y little smite function since i got here.

some people are so ungrateful.

[AngelaG]

BS Kevin.

Note where I said

For a low roundhouse the shin can also be used to block,

That part was nicely ignored. Instead you picked on a technique where I already said that if you insisted on using gedan barai to block a kick you could strike into the thigh. Something I had already said I would not choose to do. So you try and pick out a bit you can criticise, meanwhile taking it out of context... And then you come in and say,

as a heavily MT influenced fighter with low kicks i instinctively just raise my knee and let the kick hit my shin

Something I had already suggested and been ignored by you!

Than this occured

However if you can meet it with your arm it might be just as well to keep the hands up and jam it with your leg instead.

agreed, but if you go to jam it (say a right low roundhouse) with your left leg and they switch and kick the inside of your right leg whilst youre standing on it alone, you'll know all about that.

Who said anything about standing on one leg? I'd just be jamming into their leg with my leg, I'd still have two feet firmly on the floor. Meanwhile my hands would be doing something else higher up.

Seriously, I prefer to have my feet and legs working low, and my hands up high.

[darkstar]

lol, BS is it?

ok Angela as long as you're confident, that's all that matters. i'd be interested to to see exactly how youre going to jam a thai roundhouse using your leg but with both feet on the floor, and pretty confident if you lifted a shin against mine you'd regret it, but you strike me like youre spoiling for an argument now so lets leave it there.