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Post by random on Nov 23, 2005 23:37:00 GMT
I'll start this thread of...yes they do. And I am sure I will get a chance to explain why soon!  Remember play nice.  Apologies to our new TKD members, is it patterns or forms?  |
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Post by AngelaG on Nov 24, 2005 7:52:53 GMT
Or poomse?  |
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Post by miffersy on Nov 24, 2005 9:30:24 GMT
Or poomse? Hi, Isn't it Patterns and Poomse is equivalent to Kyu grade?. I'm sure some of our TKD practicioners will put us straight. |
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Post by Aefibird on Nov 24, 2005 21:31:04 GMT
Poomse are junior black belts (or sometimes, junior back belt candidates). They're the ones who wear belts where one half is red and the other half is black.
Poomsae are forms.
They're also known as patterns or hyungs. I've even heard them referred to as sets, although that's usually a Chinese Martial Arts term.
WFT TKDers usually refer to their "kata" as patterns.
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Post by Andy on Nov 24, 2005 23:21:52 GMT
I've even heard them referred to as sets, although that's usually a Chinese Martial Arts term. No that's a badgers lair. ;D Hmm, another for or against Kata thread? How best to ensure a cot death for it I wonder. If people enjoy them, then there's a place for them. There's a big myth attached to the whole thing though. In all my travels, and with all the MA people I've met, I've never heard a single person stating that forms, sets, Kata, Poomsae or whatever are for teaching you to fight. That they hold information, ideas and principles which can be extracted to use in drills, and on to perhaps a sporting context MA or even a real altercation, is entirely reasonable. That's a horrendous understatement really, but it serves to block one exit on the multi-tangent roundabout that inevitably spins out of Kata discussion. Me, I like to focus on what can be positively gained, rather than proving some kind of irrelevant negative. |
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Post by darkstar on Nov 25, 2005 10:48:38 GMT
it depends what your goals are in todays world.
if you want to be good at kata, by all means do them.
but to acquire skill as a fighter, you need to fight, and train specifically for that.
what percentage of professional fighters time do you think spend time working on kata?
unfortunately the spirit of some ancient warrior will not suddenly leap forth from all your kata and protect you if it suddenly comes on top.
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Post by AngelaG on Nov 25, 2005 12:32:37 GMT
what percentage of professional fighters time do you think spend time working on kata? About the same that spend time working on flow drills or shadow boxing? |
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Post by darkstar on Nov 25, 2005 12:54:57 GMT
shadow boxing is entirely unrelated to kata?
one is a pre-ordained set of moves, with almost no room for variation, the other is essentially freeform, for whilst it incorporates recurring patterns, it also allows for "ad libbing" & variation within the techniques, movement and footwork.
it's also performed at "fight speed" in realistic fighting stance and using real fighting techniques, which again cant be said for kata.
nearly all pro fighters will shadow box. very few will do kata, and the ones who do are doing it for reasons than improving their fighting, ie. relaxation, warm-down etc.
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Post by andym on Nov 25, 2005 12:56:24 GMT
Pro-Fighting and Karate are 2 different things though. Not sure you can bundle them in together and compare the 2 IMO.
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Post by darkstar on Nov 25, 2005 13:15:30 GMT
Pro-Fighting and Karate are 2 different things though. Not sure you can bundle them in together and compare the 2 IMO. i agree. they have little in common. the thread asks how relevant kata is in the modern world. as kata is the heart, soul, spirit (or whatever) of karate, in a way you could say how relevant is karate in the modern world? i mean we're rarely attacked by bandits whilst going to market these days are we? how often have you had to use karate to defend your life? |
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Post by andym on Nov 25, 2005 13:18:18 GMT
Yeah but not all of us do Karate for the purpose of street fighting. Granted it'll give us an edge in a fight but Karate isn't about street fighting in the slightest. It's about skill, accuracy, character development and a respect for other people.
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Post by AngelaG on Nov 25, 2005 13:21:07 GMT
LOL circular arguing....
Karate is crap because it doesn't teach you how to fight effectively... No karate is crap because it's irrelevant as we rarely have to fight for our lives these days. Which is it? And why do you have such a chip on your shoulder about what other people choose to do with their time??
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Post by Aefibird on Nov 25, 2005 16:36:20 GMT
My own twopen'orth is that kata/patterns/forms/whatever-ya-wanna-call-'ems are useful training tools and can be great for helping people get to grips with the basics of their art. However, I also believe that there's a lot more to them than that. They're not just fancy dances or a way to get people to remember a list of techniques - they have princilples behind them and it's these principles which help karateka/TKDers etc to really get to grips with the fighting method of their art. I can understand why some people dismiss kata. Sure, if you're a pro boxer, punching the bag or working with a partner might be more beneficial to you. However, kata is a great tool for those in karate. Not every martial artist is training to get in the ring. Not all martial artists are training simply for street fighting or even training just for self defence. This might come as a shock to all you MMAers ( that was a joke BTW in case you didn't geddit) but not everyone wants to fight, certainly not all the time. Anyway, this argument is a little redundant. It's like being a supporter of a football team. On one side we have the Rangers fans who will always be Rangers fans, no matter what anyone says and on the other side we have the Celtic fans who will always be celtic fans no matter how anyone tries to get them to change their mind. It's like that with kata. You either see it as a great tool or dismiss it - there doesn't really seem to be a middle ground with it. Those who love it will continue to do so, despite what the haters say about it and those who hate it will continue to do so despite what those who love it say. In fact, let's get the argument out of the way now: "Kata is great" "No it isn't" "Yes it is" "No it isn't" "Yes it is" "No it isn't" "Yes it is" *cue punch up.* Repeat. Often. |
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Post by darkstar on Nov 26, 2005 12:14:48 GMT
LOL circular arguing.... Karate is crap because it doesn't teach you how to fight effectively... No karate is crap because it's irrelevant as we rarely have to fight for our lives these days. Which is it? And why do you have such a chip on your shoulder about what other people choose to do with their time?? hey, i don't have any kind of chip at all about what people want to do with their time? and i havent once said karate is crap. you'll notice i havent started any of these threads? as an early part of my MA evolution karate did it's job. the people wondering how relevant kata are, are doing karate themselves and asking the question. it's just that from an outside perspective it's easy to see the negatives that people on the inside either don't see, or ignore. like when you're in a bad relationship and deluding yourself, all your friends and family can see it, but you never can. as i'm mainly having this discussion with the girls here, obviously real fighting is (hopefully) pretty unlikely anyway. i'll repeat, i absolutely have no problem at all with people doing whatever they want with their time. I only feel the need to say anything at all when it appears to me that people are getting confused about what it is they are learning and how well it may serve them in their moment of need. i've seen many many people who've got to high grades in trad MA and knew almost endless kata etc who've been taken apart by lowish level Mt ers, and a couple who've actually frozen in serious situations, or who've attempted some unrealistic technique and been totally hammered by a mere street thug. this isnt because MT is intrinsically better than karate so much as the way they train is more realistic. and obviously it doesnt get any more real than the street, ..so someone wondering whether or not what they've been learning will work against someone who hits and butts people every week is never going to be a fair match. |
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Post by Aefibird on Nov 26, 2005 23:47:38 GMT
Thing is, though, not everyone trains for fighting or even self defence. That's always a point worth taking into consideration when talking about kata or any other aspect of martial arts. The reasons people have to train can really affect how they train and what they get out of it.
I've done a little Iaido training (when I used to train in Aikido). It was great and I loved performing the kata. However, it doesn't mean that I can automatically use that kata in a "real" situation, but it doesn't also therefore follow that just beacause those movements can't be translated to "real life" (after all not many people walk around with a katana all the time) the kata is therefore worthless.
There's a lot more to kata than simply being able to us it to fight with and to train for "da streetz".
(edited for typo's)
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