Stance question.

[thingy]

I'd like to ask a question please.

There is a stance, which is in kata Gankaku. You stand on one leg, the right leg. The instep of the left foot goes behind, and touches the back of the right knee.

I'm struggling to understand this stance. What's it all about do you think?

ta

[AngelaG]

When you touch yourself in a kata (for example morote uke) it can be useful to think of this in terms of it representing an area you would want to hit on your opponent. So the knee up could be a knee to the opponent, and the foot to the back of the knee could represent a strike into the back of their knee.

There is also the possibility that it is also balance training.

[thingy]

Ah, now I'd got the knee strike (it doesn't take a genius to make that leap), but I couldn't figure out why you'd be bringing your lovely knee strike to a complete halt by kicking yourself in the back of the leg.

Now this is an interesting theory, something I hadn't considered before. You think that a touch in a technique is perhaps, for want of a better phrase, a code containing clues to the techniques application, as opposed to being an actual part of the technique.

Does this "Look at me I'm a clue, not a part of the technique" sort of thing happen in other crafty ways, other than the touching thing? Actually I guess that's quite possibly too broad a question.

[AngelaG]

thingy said:

Ah, now I'd got the knee strike (it doesn't take a genius to make that leap), but I couldn't figure out why you'd be bringing your lovely knee strike to a complete halt by kicking yourself in the back of the leg.

Now this is an interesting theory, something I hadn't considered before. You think that a touch in a technique is perhaps, for want of a better phrase, a code containing clues to the techniques application, as opposed to being an actual part of the technique.

Does this "Look at me I'm a clue, not a part of the technique" sort of thing happen in other crafty ways, other than the touching thing? Actually I guess that's quite possibly too broad a question.

Yes I think it does, but then opinions will vary. I think there's quite a few touchy feely things in kata. However as kata bunkai is pretty much reverse engineered these days, as long as people have a good set of principles to work from, and as long as the defence works against a likely attack (i.e. not stepping mae geri), then I don't suppose it really matters. What's more important in a real situation? Making your defence look like a kata move, or taking control of the opponent without getting hurt yourself? This is why kata as a set of principles and indicators of vulnerable points, body mechanics etc. interests me more than kata as a set of continuous techniques.

[thingy]

I must admit I have a bit of a "leap of faith" problem with theories like this.

I'm truly interested and will spend a good time pondering such things, but I do have trouble with them.

Sometimes it seems a little like no-one can come up with anything decent as to what a move can be about, so someone comes up with a vague answer and other people go "hmmm, i guess it could be.".

[AngelaG]

You will only ever get theories as the truth has long been buried.

It's just some theories make more sense than others.

[random]

Stances are amazing things, most of them, even if you could remember them and think about them, you wouldn’t even dream about making one if you were in a real situation in d’street (wherever that is). But the benefits are countless, strength, stability, and coordination to name but a few. I have often seen people neglect their stance, yet that can make the difference between a good punch and a rubbish punch.

Stances are a font of knowledge as long as you know how to drink from the well, which will take years of practice.

[AngelaG]

It's also worth remembering that stances are the end snap shot of a technique. You don't apply a technique in a stance, but rather move into a stance to utilise your body mass in a given direction.

[Shorin Ryu Sensei]

*ahem*...not wanting to step on the toes of our illustrious (and fearless of course) leader AngelaG ;D, but the stance that he is referring to, if I'm picturing it correctly and Gankaku kata and Chinto kata are the same, which I believe they are (well, sort of anyway), is a hakutsuru (white crane) technique. The flat/top of the foot placed behind the knee is for one of three things:

1. a prepatory move for a low placed kick
2. protection for the groin.
3. a sweeping movement that sweeps a groin kick out of the way and opens up the opponent for a counter kick (see #1) to his groin.

The foot placement behind the opposite knee rather than alongside the knee is for support and strength.

[AngelaG]

Locking the foot behind the knee does not strengthen or support the other leg - if anything it actually weakens it because a properly aimed strike on the lifted leg could actually cause it to buckle the support leg. Standing on one leg for any amount of time is, in my opinion, foolish, and leaves one open to being toppled.

For protecting the groin I would suggest a stance more like Hangetsudachi or sachindachi?!

[pasmith]

I'll be honest and say that I can't think of a single real world application of that move.

I can see that standing on one leg will happen if you shin block. I can also see it when in a clinch you wrap your leg around the other guys leg in an attempt to trip him to the floor.

I can also see this position as the leg position in a triangle choke or half guard when on the floor. Transposing this move to the floor is a leap of faith in kata that I can't make and is the kind of thinking ridiculed in RB or MMA circles.

Putting the foot behind the knee in "a prepatory move for a low placed kick" doesn't make sense. That's like putting your hand in your pocket as a preparatory move for a punch.

Also "protection for the groin" is better served by some sort of Sanchin stance or regular shin block.

Tis and odd one that move. Hopefully some of the RB kata stalwarts (Abernethy for example) could explain what it's for?

[searcher2]

Tsuru ashi dachi
Crane foot stance
If I lift my foot to that position what happens to my knee? It rises. If there is an opponent grappling with me then guess where that knee goes. Anywhere is good. If you get the groin, well done. If it goes to the inside thigh, well done. If it goes to the outside thigh, well done.
If I lift my foot while attempting to knee and it goes wildly wrong might I get my leg entagled with that of the attacker? If stalwart martial artists are to be believed and most fights end on the floor, then if I am falling might it not be a good idea to wrap my leg around that of my opponent and secure my grip by locking my foot in behind me?
While all of this is going on, I should probably do something with my hands. Let's try gripping the opponent's hair and chin and ripping my hands past each other violently - just like the picture in the Bubishi. Take those hands to their logical extension and it might look like manji-gamae.


How about this:
After delivering some shock to the attacker (you have hit him), you decide that it is necessary to break him up a bit more. Take his right wrist in your right hand and place his arm across the back of your neck with his elbow down and his palm facing up. Strike down with your left fist into his groin/bladder/ribs/whatever you can reach. It looks just like manji-gamae.
What about the legs? Just as his arm is about to break at the elbow, add his bodyweight to the other end of the lever by hacking his leg out from under him. Rather than kicking it in, lift it with your (left) foot or catch it with your heel. This has the advantage of disengaging their hip if successful, or distracting if unsuccessful.

Those interested in TCM:
If I take the top of my foot past the "Sea of Marrow" by the knee and into the Bladder meridian behind the calf, I exercise the energy flow in the water meridians, bringing it into its "home" meridians. This has the added benefit of lighting up the fire meridians in the arms and making the activity there "more fiery".
The arms crossing in front of the CV and the expanding movement is a Yang response for rising energy opposite to the Yin response of the legs. The effect is "power up"!

Enjoy.

[searcher2]

Oh, and don't stand there for very long.
Get the damage done and move on. Hold the posture for kata so that your body remembers it. Don't do a "Daniel-san" and strike a pose every time someone gives you the evil eye.

[Shorin Ryu Sensei]

angelag said:

Locking the foot behind the knee does not strengthen or support the other leg - if anything it actually weakens it because a properly aimed strike on the lifted leg could actually cause it to buckle the support leg.

What sort of kick are you referring to here Angela? The only kick that is going to do what you're suggesting is a kick that hooks behind the bent knee and pulls the leg, which in turn would pull the foot behind the knee. That's not possible because there is no room (if done properly) behind the bent knee to hook a leg in there, and if you were to try you'd set yourself up for a groin kick from the bent leg. As I said, it's a preparatory kick, leg block or groin protection movement primarily.

Standing on one leg for any amount of time is, in my opinion, foolish, and leaves one open to being toppled.

As in the Kata, standing on one leg is just a transition movement and not generally meant to be a long term position. However, there are techniques where using that crane stance for short periods of time works quite well. Your leg is already cocked/chambered and ready to go. It works well in a situation like mine where my leg is generally longer than my opponents (I'm 6'6"/198cm tall) and affords me the opportunity to kick a kickers groin or back of the thigh (a really good place to kick someone if you weren't aware of it).

For protecting the groin I would suggest a stance more like Hangetsudachi or sachindachi?!

You'll have to excuse my lack of Japanese terminology. It's probably my6 greatest downfall, but my sensei didn't use those terms in class, and being your typical American, I never say the sense in using all Japanese terms in class, so we don't use them. I'm assuming you mean a side stance (side facing opponent), which I agree, is usually a good defense against a groin kick, but far from infallible as it makes your knees more vulnerable instead.

in general, we don't stay static and unmoving. We are in constant motion in very subtle and quick movements. More like a walking type of movement when we fight, but moving in any direction as we do so. We never stand in a wide, hard stance because we like to move...and move fast...in any direction. In order to do this you need to be relaxed and fluid. We don't bounce like a boxer, we never set a rhythm to our movements as an experienced opponent will catch onto that and nail you.

Anyway, in the application of the crane stance in the kata, it is a transitionary movement as I stated previously.

[Shorin Ryu Sensei]

One thing I'd like you to keep in mind here is that it's very difficult to explain a specific technique and it's applications via the written word, but it's easy to demonstrate them. If I had access to a video camera (I don't) and any idea of how to put that on my pc and load it somewhere so that you could see it (I haven't a clue as to how to do that stuff), I would attempt to post a video of what the crane stance is used for. Like any technique, it doesn't work in every situation, but it definitely has it's applications in a real life situation.