Training in other styles

[Aefibird]

Does anyone on here train in another style of martial ar as well as Shotokan? Or have you done so in the past?

If so, what were/are the benefits of training in more than one style at once. Also, what do you think are the 'negatives' of cross-training?

Finally, which martial arts do YOU think fit best with Shotokan, for if someone wanted to train in more than just Shotokan Karate?

[AngelaG]

I do my OCFM in addition to the Shotokan Karate. I think it complements it quite nicely as it seems to enhance the karate. Learning about PPs etc really helps build upon the bunkai learnt in karate lessons, and hitting pads etc. helps ensure that I am doing my techniques right (It hurts if not!). But karate is my first love and OCFM more the icing on the cake.

I would be reluctant to take another Martial Art similar to Shotokan as I think it would confuse the issue. You'd have one instrcutor saying "longer, lower stances", and the other saying"What are you doing down there? Shorten your stances" ;D And the problems you'd get if the kata were in any way similar... it's bad enough trying not to start in one kata and finish in another when you are doing one style.

Therefore if someone wanted to take up another martial art I'd suggest it would be best for it to be as different as possible from the one they are already taking.

[searcher2]

That's why I like my Iaido (the way of drawing the sword) to go along side karate.

It's more meditative and I'm not allowed by law to even think of practical applications!

John

[david m]

I think its a bad idea to train in 2 striking styles concurrently, as almost inevitably, technique and stylistic differences will translate as bad habits at some point.
For example:
In Shotokan, its considered good form to keep your back straight and your head up.
In Thai Boxing, keeping upright with your chin in the air, a la Shotokan, is a shortcut to getting KTFO.

Personally, I'd quite fancy giving Judo a try, but I have no time to cross train in 2 arts at the moment.

[Tommy_P]

david said:

I think its a bad idea to train in 2 striking styles concurrently, as almost inevitably, technique and stylistic differences will translate as bad habits at some point.
For example:
In Shotokan, its considered good form to keep your back straight and your head up.
In Thai Boxing, keeping upright with your chin in the air, a la Shotokan, is a shortcut to getting KTFO.

On the other hand studying more than one striking art gives the trainee more than one view/philosophy on a given technique.
It should be obvious in some cases what to use or not to use according to the philosophy of your chosen art.

The example you give comparing Thai boxing to Shotokan is a good example of different approaches but both can benefit from the other. The underlying principles remain similar.
The danger you pose in your straight back/chin up example is merely the difference between fighting for sport in a ring and needing to last for many rounds compared to a philosophy of "not" standing there "duking it out" but rather ending it with one blow (Shotokan).

Each can learn from the other.......different goals is all.

Tommy

[AngelaG]

I can see both sides of the debate, but I think if you took something like Shotokan Karate and TKD you would really be setting yourself up for some major confusion. Your Shotokan Instructor would keep asking for longer, lower stances, while your TKD Instructor would be asking for you to shorten your stances. Add to that trying to learn kata/forms that in places just ain't that different and you've got confusion central.

I prefer to do my Shotokan and then maybe train in other, similar styles occasionally. Each Instructor's teaching style will be different which may mean that you pick up new information, but because you are not there permanently there is less likelihood of getting all confused. That's why events like seminars are useful, you get to hear other people teach but don't have to adjust your own training methods permanently.

I hope you see what I mean.

[Sionnagh]

I went to a Shotokan dojo once last year, does that count? ;D

Seriously, general concensus seems to be that if you practice a [predominantly] striking art then crosstraining in a grappling art is better than another striking art. But not just because it's the "in thing" to do.

Having said that, I would suggest something like jujutsu, judo or aikido - not just for the takedowns, throws and grappling elements but also for the ukemi. Many karate dojo do little or nothing in the way of breakfalling and I have seen too many people be swept in sparring and crack their head on the floor from not knowing or being practiced at how to fall. Perhaps this is not so much an issue when mats are used as the training surface but when it is bare floor...

Just my opinion anyway ;D


Mick

[AngelaG]

Sionnagh said:

I went to a Shotokan dojo once last year, does that count? ;D

Seriously, general concensus seems to be that if you practice a [predominantly] striking art then crosstraining in a grappling art is better than another striking art. But not just because it's the "in thing" to do.

Having said that, I would suggest something like jujutsu, judo or aikido - not just for the takedowns, throws and grappling elements but also for the ukemi. Many karate dojo do little or nothing in the way of breakfalling and I have seen too many people be swept in sparring and crack their head on the floor from not knowing or being practiced at how to fall. Perhaps this is not so much an issue when mats are used as the training surface but when it is bare floor...

Just my opinion anyway ;D


Mick

It seems to me ridiculous that people should have to take up a completely different MA just because they don't learn breakfalls, especially when throws and takedowns are in the karate bunkai.

Why don't more karate teachers teach breakfalls? Is there a big failing somewhere in what karateka are learning?

I am loathe to cross train because it would take away from my Shotokan time - but if there were big gaps in my training I guess I would have no other option. Luckily I can breakfall though ;D (although I hate it!!)

Angela

[RDKI]

Ukemi is something that I teach from beginner level even though us karate instructors arent supposed to know this

The only reason that I do it is because I learned it a various jujitsu and aikido clubs i've visited otherwise I would never have done any breakfalls ever.

I suppose as I teach them, I'd better include them in the grading syllabus hadn't i really? Hmm - why didn't I think of that before?

[AngelaG]

RDKI said:

Ukemi is something that I teach from beginner level even though us karate instructors arent supposed to know this

The only reason that I do it is because I learned it a various jujitsu and aikido clubs i've visited otherwise I would never have done any breakfalls ever.

I suppose as I teach them, I'd better include them in the grading syllabus hadn't i really? Hmm - why didn't I think of that before?

HMM. Is that a rhetorical question??

If not maybe you didn't introduce them because if you grade on everything you do in the lesson you'd end up with very long, very boring gradings. You'd end up asleep before you even got halfway through the kihon.

How useful are breakfalls in using karate as a proper defence system anyway? If I aim to drop you on your neck how useful is a breakfall. You are better with a considerate partner who will make sure they don't slam you down on your neck (let you drop gently )

[Sionnagh]

Breakfalls are in our syllabus (though not as an assessable item) just... because! ;D

One of the rules in partner training is that you have to look after your partner. This is just common sense so that you don't run out of intact partners too quickly.

Since we have basic throws and stuff in our syllabus it is necessary to teach breakfalling. Though it is not an assessable part and not all students like to fall, just as not all students are able to be thrown - for their own health and safety - all are strongly urged to participate in breakfalling practice.

In practicing throws it is not necessary to always execute the throw, some practice is simply going to the load position - to the point of another inch or 2 and the uke is on their way to the floor. As I said, some people can't/don't want to be thrown. It may be their age, health or that they had dinner right before class. In this comes the safety factor - if the person practicing the throw has blocked ears and does not hear the instruction to only go to the load next thing you know their partner goes thump on the floor. This is when they needed to know how to fall.

Also as I previously mentioned, being swept in kumite usually comes when you're not ready for it and being able to fall safely is better than landing like a sack of < insert object > .

Plus I think something is lost when you go from being able to throw someone (with care) and trusting that they can land to throwing someone (but not quite throwing) because you have to let them down gently.


Mick

[AngelaG]

Sionnagh said:

Plus I think something is lost when you go from being able to throw someone (with care) and trusting that they can land to throwing someone (but not quite throwing) because you have to let them down gently.


Mick

Very true, but on the other hand something is also lost if you are throwing a partner so that they can land with a breakfall. A true good throw would leave a partner with no chance to breakfall - I guesss it could almost be considered a dump rather than a throw.

There are some throws where the best course of action would be to jam the person down neck first - obviously not a viable training option so you either a) do it technically correct but very slowly and lower the partner down or b) do it fast but drop them so they are allowed to breakfall. I guess either way something is lost but without seriously injuring someone what else can you do? Perhaps the best thing is to practice it both ways, so you train for the strength, the speed and the technical alignment etc?

Cheers
Angela

[Sionnagh]

I guess so, although there are other ukemi besides breakfalling - some throws it is better to land and tuck into a roll for example. I suppose here we are distinguishing a bit between throws where you can add a bit of thrust e.g. through the legs to loft someone higher which if they are sufficiently competent at landing they can take care of themself, and throws where you would jam them head-first towards the ground, which I don't know if it is really possible to do fully and still look after them.

I do tend to regard throws as an 'if the opportunity clearly presents' type thing rather than making an effort to try for one.

The other thing I considered but forgot to mention is that in practicing anything you become (at least somewhat) accustomed to it. Something I have noticed fairly recently is that when I have been swept in kumite I have not experienced the disorientation or startlement that I remember from earlier times. I can only attribute this to practice at falling. I guess that like anything else that you train or practice enough to build an automatic reaction then it starts to be less of an "oooh ssshhhthump" (I was gonna say "sugar" there, honest ) moment and more of a "oh look, I fell and now am standing again" (still working on that).


Mick

[AngelaG]

Do you also train in grappling situations?

[Sionnagh]

By grappling do you mean restraints and escapes and drills where you "stick" to your partner after intercepting a technique to feel how they move, or full-on-rolling-around-on-the-ground-getting-all-sweaty type stuff?


Mick