Tai Chi question

[thingy]

Good moaning,

Was looking in karateforum thing this lunchtime and I saw a post from Aefibird talking about training in Chen style Tai Chi Chuen.

I've recently been involved in 'phoning up most Tai Chi instructors in the area, and have put my name forward to train in a chen style class in the next wave of beginner classes. Really just wanted to go and train a few times in every Tai Chi class in the area, with the idea of getting down to one class to enroll with, but these classes seem to teach in terms, and you have to wait until the next term starts before you can go along and have a go.

Whats the chen style like? Do you have to wait a long time before you start to do fighty things (i get the idea you have to spend some time on the form before you go onto other things).
And whats silk reeling?

Aefibird (or anyone else of course), help me!!

[Aefibird]

Generally, yes, you spend time learning the first form before you do any fighty bits. However, it is up to the individual teacher. My GM usually spends about half the session on form work and about half the time on application and practical use of TCC. We also incorporate some Qi Gong techniques into our training.

There are some differences between the different styles of TTC. Chen style is usually considered to be more a Southern style of Chinese MA (like Wing Chun, Choy Lay Fut etc) whereas Yang style is more usually considered to be a Northern style of Kung Fu (like Praying Mantis, Shaolin 5 Animals etc). Sun and Anang styles are much rarer and are generally a mix of Yang and Chen, but with more emphais on specific aspects of TTC (such as weapons). Chen is generally considered to be more of a Southern style of Chinese MA because Southern Chinese MA's often teach Chen TCC in conjunction with their own art. Same for Northern styles.

If you're interested in Tai Chi then go to www.taichicentre.com
That's the web addy for the Chen style Tai Chi centre in Manchester. GM Kongjie Gou and M Liming Yue (my instructors) are based there. You can aslo download the Tai Chi 11 Form, which is generally the first Chen form taught.

Good luck and I hope you enjoy your Tai Chi Chu'an!

[thingy]

Thanks for the answer Aefibird, it's much appreciated.

So kids, it seems the term has started and so last night I turned up for my first go at Chen style Tai Chi Chuan.

I'm left feeling a little baffled. I've signed up for the term. Got a few things going on which I suspect may cut off my Tai Chi development within a short time but for the moment I'm there.

So yes, baffled. I think I'm a little shocked by quite how much you're asked to put your faith in.

Last nights lesson:

A very gentle warm up
Meditation
Chi Kung - breathing/energy exercises

Then we stopped and watched the 2nd termers do the first 5 moves of the form. The form seems to consist of 70ish moves, and it takes a while before you learn all the moves. The first term it's estimated you learn 6 or 7. By the end of the second term maybe 15 moves. I'm used to these days doing katas with lots of moves, certainly close to the 70 mark so I wasn't at all perturbed by a form with 70ish moves. However, each "move" seems to have a lot involved, in fact the teacher after a while started calling them patterns - 70ish patterns in the form.

Then, I was feeling all eager and waiting to have a go at move 1....
We did some breathing exercises.

Then, some meditation, then some Chi Kung, then some breathing exercises. And that was the end.

I'm pretty sure he's doing that thing of teaching us things in a way we don't realise, putting elements into out of context exercises and then without realising, you know how to do more than you thought. So that's good.

It's strange, at no point was there even any mention of anything at all fighty, just energy exercises. I remember starting training in martial arts and the first things I was taught was how to bow, how to go into the ready position and then how to do a punch. When you're taught that you can instantly see something, a result.

The other thing, we'd stand there for a long time not really moving much, just breathing and doing some slow movement, and then after 5 minutes we'd stop for a rest. Resting from what?
Ok so I know it's pretty obvious from this write up that I'm rather new to things such as meditation, Chi Kung etc. For those of you more experienced at such things, please take the opportunity to feel sorry for me.

I think one of the oddest things for me is that I felt some desire to go up and punch the instructor, which I've never had before - not out of nastyness and not because I wanted to prove anything, just really to see how he reacted - so there was something a little more tangible to the whole thing. I mean there's no malice there and I was never going to do such a thing, but being asked to put so much faith into what comes across as nothing at all martial arty was I think as great a challenge as anything else.

[Aefibird]

Well, although it may seem as though you have had a lesson of 'nothing', that's basically how most traditional TC teachers teach. It's a way of making sure that basics are perfectly nailed and also as a way of weeding out those without commitment.

My GM holds the highest martial arts award from the Chinese Government that it is possible to have...but on occasions you wouldn't actually think we were doing any martial arts at all, as we stand there just breathing in and out. ;D

We once spent a whole lesson working on left Ward Off and right Ward Off (like a karate back stance and palm block).

Many traditional TC teachers teach like their art:
very s l o w l y. The thing with Tai Chi is that it is important to have a good base and foundation, epseically when translating the movements from the form to the fighting or to push hands. Power and energy in Tai Chi comes from the legs.

Spend a few minutes each day in your basic TC stance and that will help you to get the solid base. I know that you will have good strong legs already from doing karate, but the power generation in TC is different from that of karate, so a solid TC base is different from a solid Karate base (even though they may even look the same/similar).

Anyway, stand with your knees shoulder-width apart, toes turned ever so slightly in and bend your knees - your knees shouldn't go past your toes. Breathe in and out through the nose - touch your tongue to the roof of your mouth to get the correct TC breathing position. Stand like that for as long as possible. Have your hands out in front of you, like you are holding a giant beachball -your arms should form a smooth curve.
Also, from that position, practice moving backwards and forwards in stance. From the stance just described above, lift your right leg slightly off the floor, stretch it out and put it back down on the floor so that you are stepping forwards (or diagonally - TC uses a lot of diagonals). Your heel should touch the floor first and your body weight should sink down into the floor, pushing the rest of your foot down. Bend your front leg, but not so the heel goes past the toes. The pelvis should be pushed forward slightly and your toes should be in 'tiger claw' - bend your toes under so that they are gripping the floor. Repeat continuously left and right, forwards and backwards until you are sick of it. The practice it some more... Make sure that you are looking forwards at all times, in the direction you are going. Concentrate on your breathing being relaxed and your energy flowing forward.

One of the things with TC is that you are training without training (oooh, that was very Bruce Lee-ish) and that many of the Chi Gung exercises have practical application. It might seem like you are not doing anything at all (not even breaking a sweat) but you will be learning. It's just difficult to see how until you've been training a few weeks/months. Then it will start to sink into place.

All I can say is... it's a slow process, but stick with it and you'll soon see results.

BTW, which Chen form are you learning? Is it the Modified Short Form or the 11 Form (not called because it has 11 moves in it, it's got about 70!)?

Good luck with your training.

[thingy]

I'm afraid I don't know the style. Here is the web page for the chappie I'll be training with.

home.btconnect.com/TaiChi/index.htm

Some of the Chi-kung exercises we did was I think called the three circles, or something like that.

Reading back my post I sound like a right impatient so and so. I'm not, honest gov.

And I do of course understand that I have to wait a while before it makes any sense. I was a little taken aback as to quite how different the training is. Every MA school I've visited has been relatively the same to a greater or lesser degree but this is really very different.

I will practice some of those things, but not until I've been shown them. We weren't allowed to hug the beach ball, We had to put our hands on our navels. The more senior students got to hug the beach ball. we did do the stepping to the side and going heel down first.

Other than that, a lot of what you say does sound very familiar but I'm not going to practice too much until I get a few of the technicalities straight in my mind.

Anyhow the kung fu names for techniques rule. We did some stretching exercise and it was called something along the lines of "The grazing cow looks lazily at the moon". You start by being a cow looking at the grass. Looking at the moon was ok but looking at the grass was better I reckon.

[Aefibird]

Well, the names crack me up every time I hear them...

Instead of defending against an attack with a low block you "grasp the birds tail". What's that all about then?

My instructor, GM Gou, tends to teach us the names of techniques in Mandarin rather than in English.
This is for two reasons:
1)his Mandarin is better than his English (although his English is 10,000 times better than my very poor grasp of Mandarin)
2)and also it stops a group of South Yorkshire no-nonsense MAists looking at one another and going "what the f..." when we do a technique with a name like "golden rooster stretches one leg"....

[thingy]

Aefibird said:

...

2)and also it stops a group of South Yorkshire no-nonsense MAists looking at one another and going "what the f..." when we do a technique with a name like "golden rooster stretches one leg"....

Down here in the south, we'd never be so rude..

Anyhow, I believe the form is called Lao Jia Yilu. I think...I'm not certain. I've found some videos here and the first couple of moves look the same and I have slight recollection of the words "lao Jia".

www.taichichen.com/chenresources_videos.htm

I've thus far got as far as 29 seconds in to the video of Lao Jia Yilu performed by Malisa Ng.

[AngelaG]

How's the tai chi going, thingy?

[thingy]

It's getting increasingly good thanks. With every week it seems to get better.

We still haven't approached anything remotely fight-like, though the instructor does occasionally say things such as "this is a block", but it's never enough information to make sense of quite what's going on, what the other hand is doing etc.

I'm trying as best I can to approach the whole thing with a completely empty mind, so as I don't just apply my own thoughts and my previous training to it. Though I do end up spending time trying to work out my own bunkai to the moves.

Alas, this weekend there was an "applications" lesson where we could get to see some of the fighting applications. My alarm went off, I missed the snooze button and pressed the off button and the next thing you know, I'd missed it. Bah!

The instructor talks about how with Tai Chi you really start from getting a strong posture first and then once you've achieved that you can start working on other things, you just have to be patient. Certainly the instructor looks kind of weedy but when we were doing this pushing exercise the other day he seemed as solid as an ox.

The chi-kung exercises are producing strange results, each week seems to be something slightly different. Sometimes my hands get hot, they often tingle and recently the tingling wasn't just in my hands but halfway up the wrist too.
I'm also starting to feel (though not consistently) a magnet like force between my hands while doing Chi-kung, I move my fingers apart and this magnet power pulls them back together slightly, then afterwards my hand feels like i've put on big metal boxing gloves or something, they feel very heavy. Strange.

[AngelaG]

Do you ever get "spam" hands?

[thingy]

Maybe I do, and maybe I don't. Who wants to know?

Actually I don't know what "Spam hands" are, so that may be a clue as to me not getting them, perhaps. What are they?

[AngelaG]

Well I'm sure it's not a technical term. ;D What I mean by that is that we find that when we "light up" after energy work our hands become all speckled with white blobs. It's a really good indicator. It's quite fun to go and hit things when that happens... (not random people in the street ;D )

[Aefibird]

Ah! I get what you mean by spam hands now! Yeah, I get that sometimes (depending on what I'm working on) - it's an odd feeling at first, but good too.

[thingy]

Well, exciting times folks. Tonight is the first lesson of term 2 of my Tai Chi. This officially means I am no longer right at the bottom of the class, there will be new students. And you know what that means....There will be new people that I can bully.

I'm thinking of pretending that I'm the instructor and barking commands at the new students, getting them to do loads of strenuous exercises. Not sure I'll get away with it though. What do you think?

[Aefibird]

lol, have fun!

Do you know what you will be moving on to this term?