Locks, bars, joint manipulation

[dickclark]

I am not sure how the injury happened has any merit. But I am in the US, and I believe we have a very different common law on this matter.
However let me note the following:
Once they are on the ground, you must stop the attack, as it is general perceived that they are now no longer a threat. Any thing after that, you are now the aggressor and could be in a heap of trouble. You must show that even though they are down, they could pose a risk. And you have to be able to convince your average peacenick 'I would never raise my arm in anger' nitwit that you were at risk.
On another topic, I find that I just cannot write on how to do an arm bar with out some kind of picture reference.
I have tried to address the topic about the hole and distance and find that my writing is rubbish.
I will try and find some pic or make my own so we can pursue this more, as it is really the topic at hand.
Any one have a site that has people stand doing locks? I have a judo site, but I think that would really stretch our collective imaginations to try and translate mat work to standing drill. We can, but it would be hard.

Angela, I thought a while back you posted some stuff, or am I nuts, well I mean about the post.

[pasmith]

It's not so much "how" the injury happened but the nature and lasting effects of the injury and how that might effect your prosecution. Some techniques have the potential for lasting injury (locks, gouges, biting etc) while others leave minimal damage while still remaining effective (slaps, body shots to some degree, leg kicks, chokes etc)
If the bloke hobbles into court 6 months after the event because you snapped his knee I'm sure the jury will see that as evidence of "over doing it".
If on the other hand you choked him out with a RNC then within 5 minutes he'd be back to normal without an aggressive mark on him and without evidence to show that you'd even had a fight at all.

This has gone a little off topic and it's not really as important to me as may be inferred from my posts.
I just believe it's an additional consideration when performing joint locks and such like.

[Mr. Precision]

pasmith said:

Tend to agree with that.
I just think the law is something we need to consider. Slapping someone is safer law-wise than dislocating their elbow. One leaves lasting damage the other is momentary discomfort.

If someone's trying to hurt me I have to assume they're going to try to kill me, i'm also going to assume they're carrying a weapon. So, I'm going to do everything I can to avoid a situation but I'm not going to slap someone with the assumption that it'll stop them when they actually do attack. I want it over in 3 seconds flat. Less...

Perhaps we just live in different cultures...

thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1648212005

www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1786945,00.html

A throat strike is potentially more dangerous than a cross to the jaw. There are "safer" options.

And when you miss the jaw and hit the throat? Or vice versa. People don't stand around to be hit.

[AngelaG]

dickclark said:

Angela, I thought a while back you posted some stuff, or am I nuts, well I mean about the post.

I post lots of stuff, most of it meangless drivel lol. Which particular stuff are you referring to? And do you mean on this forum?

[pasmith]

I do broadly agree with you Mr Precision.
I live in York and work in Leeds. Glasgow is probably a bit (a lot?) rougher but not a million miles away.
Assuming the worst in a violent encounter is a good thing. It prepares you mentally and can inform your choices of tactics and responses.
That doesn't, however, give you the right to stamp through a drunks knee and not face some come-back from the law when he can't walk properly again.
Not every encounter needs to be met with the intention of maiming someone or leaving them with a limp when the weather turns cold.

When I talk about slapping someone believe you me when I say that it can and will end things in under three seconds flat.
I'm not talking about slapping him across the face and sending him on his way.
I'm talking about a full blooded, full hip twist, fully committed, full body weight palm strike to the side of his face/jaw/head.
As advoctaed by such luminaries in the SD field as Dave Turton, Peter Consterdine and Jamie O'Keefe.
It's my pre-emptive strike of choice and one that leaves little lasting damage but can shut someone down in the blink of an eye.
All the witnesses will be able to say is that I slapped a guy and he fell over.

[AngelaG]

But they can identify you by your fingerprints on his face

[Aefibird]

IMO, different situations require different amounts of force. A friend of mine used to work the doors in Doncaster and he has some very funny stories to tell (including the time he invited a gang of p!ss-heads to "step outside", so they all ran out and he barricaded the door behind them! lol). He also points out that he used different amounts of force at different times. If someone was being loud and wouldn't leave then that requires different force and a different response to someone who has a knife and intends to use it.

It's the same for all of us, IMO, regardless of whether you do door security or not. if someone is just posturing then maiming them or worse isn't going to be taken well by a judge. If they're trying their damndest to put you 6' under then that is a different matter. What many so-called "street" encounters are gonna be like can be determined by the pre-fight phase. A drunken oaf demanding to know what you're looking at is probably most likely to need a lot less force used on him/her than someone demanding your money with menaces.

I know that all that would most likely go out of the window if ever I got myself into a real situation (I've been on the periphary of several pub fights in my time, but never fully involved, thankfully) and that if anyone did attack me then I'd want to send that person to intensive care, but it is worth *trying* to remember about reasonable/ecessive force for any real SD situations, if only to save yourself from a lengthy jail term.

[random]

I can’t help feeling we have been here before…(but I can’t be bothered finding it).

Reasonable force is the key word at the moment. Although the government is trying to get the law change so that we can do what we please to burglars, as long as we get them in the house. ;D

As to SD or even better SP (self preservation) situations…I have come close to actual physical contact, but never had to, (I don’t include door work, I got paid for that) but the feeling at the time remains with me (this wasn’t pub brawl type situation [go on find it in another post]) and to be honest it does disturb me…or at least makes me feel somewhat uncomfortable…because to be honest, if it did kick off, then the proposition of being stood in court with a limping or wheeling victim (who initially wanted to do me harm) was the last thing from my mind.

And isn’t this the problem…when it does happen, despite years of training, that basic, animal desire for survival kicks in. We just happen to be good at it!!!!!!!

[Aefibird]

random said:

We just happen to be good at it!!!!!!!

Speak for yourself.... Some of us aren't.... lol

[random]

Don’t put yourself down…let me do it ;D

[AngelaG]

aefibird said:

random said:

We just happen to be good at it!!!!!!!

Speak for yourself.... Some of us aren't.... lol

Is the next sentence... some of us are GREAT at it??

[Aefibird]

angelag said:

aefibird said:

Speak for yourself.... Some of us aren't.... lol

Is the next sentence... some of us are GREAT at it??

How did ya guess?!?!? ;D ;D

[smr]

I believe that standing arm bars and locks are an effective means at subduing and controlling a single attacker. Law enforcement has been using them for years. They do however have the advantage of being able to throw a pair of cuffs on the dude before they have to let them go. So that probably plays into the equasion somewhere too. Unless you convince the guy not to fight or immobilize him, he's gonna come out of that lock swinging.

[Andy]

pasmith said:

When I talk about slapping someone believe you me when I say that it can and will end things in under three seconds flat.
I'm not talking about slapping him across the face and sending him on his way.
I'm talking about a full blooded, full hip twist, fully committed, full body weight palm strike to the side of his face/jaw/head.
As advoctaed by such luminaries in the SD field as Dave Turton, Peter Consterdine and Jamie O'Keefe.
It's my pre-emptive strike of choice and one that leaves little lasting damage but can shut someone down in the blink of an eye.
All the witnesses will be able to say is that I slapped a guy and he fell over.

If I might casually ignore the luminaries you mention for a moment Paul....

I'd be obliged if you'd expand on the above.

[pasmith]

Sure Andy...bear in mind I've never had to hit anyone with my pre-emptive strike in anger so much of it is theoretical (albeit drawn from the theories of much better qualified others).

When I started looking deeper into SD I inevitably stumbled upon Geoff Thompson and the pre-emptive strike.
I set about perfecting(ish) a pre-emptive strike my own, should I need it at any time.
I went through finger jabs, punches, palm strikes etc etc until I found that I could actually get a fair amount of power from an open handed slap (or so it seems to me).
I throw it like I (or a pitcher) would throw a ball (although with a modified arc to hit to the front) with a very relaxed arm, shortened action and explosive double hip twist. I imagine my hand to be very heavy and try to envisage it landing like the flat of a heavy shovel to the side of the face.
A slap like this (can) get a knock out of a different kind to a punch. You get the head shake and brain bounce like other knock outs but you also get a nervous system overload due to the large surface area that it hits with on a very sensitive part of the body (the face). The brain cannot process all of the nerves firing all at once and shuts down for a second (or so I am lead to believe by the aforementioned luminaries) resulting in a KO and stunded opponent.
The slap also comes in from the side so can blind side someone with adrenalin induced tunnel vision. Especially when used with a line up, fence, action trigger and distracting question.
A good point of this kind of technique is that it's fairly hard to hurt your hand doing it (unlike a punch) and leaves little damage to the guy you hit (unlike punches) aside from a red hand print and a fuzzy head.
As I said, all theory on my part and it could all fall down should I have to do it for real.

PS Good guess on my first name