Locks, bars, joint manipulation

[AngelaG]

What would you say are the main principles to ensure an effective lock, bar etc? Would you ever attempt a joint lock in a real fight?

[pasmith]

Personally I see standing joint locks as support techniques.
Something that I would do if the opportunity arose but I wouldn't go looking for them. I would also always try and proceed them with an effective strike, blow before throw and all that, as this makes them far more likely to work (joint locking an unconscious person is easy ).
Striking will always be the preferred method of finishing street fights (very generally speaking of course) due to speed of execution and use against multiple attackers. That should your first port of call.
Joint locks just don't have the same chance/percentage of working as a strike. Too many variables (weight, size, strength, level of resistance etc) that could go wrong IMHO.
I do however think that joint locks on the ground are a slightly different matter due to the body control you can get on the other guy.

All joint locks/bars/manipulations used for real suffer from major draw-backs.
In reality pain or a submission (people will submit in reality sometimes) don't end a fight. You may actually have to break a limb or dislocate a joint (not an easy thing to do mentally for some people).
If you don't incapacitate them with the technique and release the lock your opponant may just get back up, decide he isn't in as much pain as he thought and want to fight you again.

[dickclark]

as I did judo in my previous life, I find that most folks cannot really get a 'lock'. Not sure why. They do not understand that you must have a fulcrum in order to set the lock.
It is too me a key item. I work it from a block, to the lock, to a drop, with perhaps a knock somewhere in there. Large joint manipulation with small joint can be effective.
I think I, we, can go pages on this if there is enough interest.

[AngelaG]

dickclark said:

as I did judo in my previous life, I find that most folks cannot really get a 'lock'. Not sure why. They do not understand that you must have a fulcrum in order to set the lock.
It is too me a key item. I work it from a block, to the lock, to a drop, with perhaps a knock somewhere in there. Large joint manipulation with small joint can be effective.
I think I, we, can go pages on this if there is enough interest.

I am very interested Dick.

[random]

I’ve used locks and arm bars to get people out of an establishment, I felt confident doing them as I wasn’t on my own, I don’t like doing techniques which tie up both hands at once, although they are useful and should be practiced, I suppose there are lots of people who think they can put one on, but can’t, after all no one struggles that much in practice to avoid injury and the like.

I do recall a broken arm and a shoulder out but not often as that wasn’t the reason to apply the technique, they were a means to control a person.

Are there techniques/tips (apart from don’t get put in one) for getting out of a lock or bar?

[AngelaG]

random said:

Are there techniques/tips (apart from don’t get put in one) for getting out of a lock or bar?

I guess that depends on what kind it is and who has put it on. I suspect a good grappler will leave very little opportunity for escape. I think your average joe tends to be quite sloppy when it comes to locks etc. though.

[pasmith]

The thing is though is that the average Joe will not use a joint lock.
Maybe a crude headlock, guillotine, scarf hold or full nelson but not a wrist lock or arm-bar.
Generally the best way of not getting joint locked is to hit relentlessly and keep hitting.

[Aefibird]

pasmith said:

bar.
Generally the best way of not getting joint locked is to hit relentlessly and keep hitting.

An attacking flurry can often be a good way of coming out the 'victor' in such as situation.

[dickclark]

I think where most locks go bad is that they never set the lock.

For arm locks, the lock is at the elbow. It ought to be called an elbow lock, as that would focus where the effort is. The problem here is that my writing skills are not up to the task. I will work in the back ground to try and get some pictures up at photo bucket. In the mean time

Lets try this. Find a partner, have them punch in with a right hand (their rh) mid level punch.
As they start the punch you are of course moving out of the way by moving forward and to your left, blocking with your right arm at about the middle of their arm, and then following down with open hand to grab the wrist, with a left open palm you go for th elbow, while twisting clock with with your rh. It is a little cumbersome. If they get any bend in the elbow, it will not work. So you have to make sure the your right hand keep the arm taught, and the elbow rotated. I will see If i can get some picts to nite.

[AngelaG]

It's very true that so many students who first start learning locks try to put it on whilst their opponent's limb is still away from their body, thereby leaving them a hole to escape.

[dickclark]

closing the hole is a challenge, understanding where the hole is is more so.
In my example, which is poor, need pictures, for the most part, all the other person needs to do is to out run the circle on you, or move in and get some elbow bending and break the lock. Your challenge is to either keep up, or put some leverage on the arm and bring him down, or reverse the lock and do an arm throw. Darn, need my camera.
Holding them too close opens up yourself for attack from their other bits, be it fist or foot or poke. In general there should be a sequence of events: block, lock, punch and drop. This of course be modified to a block, punch, lock and drop and so on. When you are really good it is just two moves the lock and the drop.

[AngelaG]

dickclark said:

Holding them too close opens up yourself for attack from their other bits, be it fist or foot or poke.

Yeah sure, but any good locks should be able to be altered to a break should the opponent wish to keep on struggling. In most SD situations this may be the only option.

[pasmith]

Another potential issue with joint locks and such like would be potential prosecution.
Knocking a guy out with strikes, a leg kick or choking him out is easier to defend in court than dislocating his knee with a heel hook of breaking his elbow with an armbar.
Actual bodily harm is clear evidence of what you did to him.
Perhaps not a consideration for your average Samurai but something we all must use our martial arts within.
You could try the old "I tried to keep hold of him until the police arrived and something must have happened to his leg when we fell" defence.

[Mr. Precision]

pasmith said:

Another potential issue with joint locks and such like would be potential prosecution.

It's an issue in all fights. Solution... Don't fight, walk away. If you fight you will be arrested, charged and prosecuted. It'll be left to the court and 12 of your peers to decide whether you broke the law or not.

Personally, if i'm fighting, and the only reason I can see for that at the moment is for my or someone else's life, I'll just go ahead and break/tear/dislocate the wrist/elbow/shoulder/knee etc from the lock just as hard and fast as I can. Just as offensively as any other punch or kick.

Then run away because their friends (yes, they tend to run in packs) will be along in 4 seconds. The idea that you're going to have the time to leisurely get them to submit in a lock or a hold is I suspect not reality.

[pasmith]

Tend to agree with that.
I just think the law is something we need to consider. Slapping someone is safer law-wise than dislocating their elbow. One leaves lasting damage the other is momentary discomfort.
A throat strike is potentially more dangerous than a cross to the jaw. There are "safer" options.
I've been aroud MA internet sites long enough to realise that there are plenty of people out there that think their MA works in a vacuum rather than in the context of todays society.