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Post by maskedman on Jan 18, 2006 15:19:43 GMT
maskedman wrote:I will have to disagree...coming from an art where the staple is jointlocking..I will say that when the hand flys the hand breaks..that is how we train to make it work...
When the hand flys the hand breaks? Can you explain that please?
Basically if you try to hit me say throw your punch..it will be my intent to grab the offending appendage and snap it...that is what combat HKD is all about!Be it a kick a grapple a throw or groundfighting you will end up being locked and broken!
Quote:I think that it comes down to the type of art...like say a TKDer is a better kicker than a karateka...
My turn to disagree. A TKD will have flashier kicks certainly, but IMHO they tend to be telegraphed much more than a properly executed karate-type kick, not to mention that they leave the TKD-er much more exposed to a counter attack because of the flashiness of the kick, the telegraph, the hands lowered, etc. of course, not all TKDers are this way, but in my experience, the majoity of them kick in this manner.
I believe you are wrong...the kicks are esentially thge same..but TKD has more of them hey a round hose kick is a round house kick....plus they train more...would you say that karateks train more for kicks than a TKDer if your answer is no..therefore by logic they are the better kickers...but we can agree to disagree!
HKD is better at joint locking than Karateks...
This depends a lot on what system of karate you're talking about here. My experiences with Shotokan gave me the impression that they are quite limited in their locking techniques, so yes, I'd agree with you on that system, but Shorin Ryu, and many other forms of karate, are quite proficient in locking techniques.
HMMMM.....i think that you misunderstand what I am trying to say...we train more for it...therefore we would be better at it.....we start with warm up and then start technique ...joint locks for two hours! It is a matter of what you are trained to do...like trying to out punch a boxer...if your not a boxer...or train like one you will have a rateher nice time trying not to get killed!
*bows respectfully*
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Post by Aefibird on Jan 18, 2006 17:08:07 GMT
My experiences with Shotokan gave me the impression that they are quite limited in their locking techniques, Shotokan has plenty of locking techniques - if you've come to the impression that it does not then the people you've been looking at have probably been missing a lot of the components of Shotokan out! It's a common misconception, but Shotokan DOES have a lot to it besides the ol' stereotypes of long stances, chambered fists and unworkable bunkai. There's grappling and groundfighting in there - you only have to go to a good Shotokan school to see it. |
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Post by Shorin Ryu Sensei on Jan 19, 2006 14:39:41 GMT
I'm not tyrying to start an argument here, but what system of karate throws punches that invite someone to grab their punch out of mid-air? I seriously doubt that unless you're talking inpractice where a partner throws a punch and just leaves it out there. If so, that is an incorrect assumption on your part, as nobody should be throwing that sort of sloppy punch in a fight.
The key words here are "essentially the same". No, they are not. I've worked with, taught seminars at, and observed probably 50 different TKD dojangs over the years, and their kicks are not the same as we do them. Their weight distribution is different, the execution of the kick is different, the targeting is different if they kick above the waist, the striking part of the foot is often different, and the return of the kick is often different. Yes, TKD emphasises kicking more than karate does, but I feel that is a weakness, rather than a strength. You can't kick a guy effectively when you're in close proximity, and it's a well known fact that TKD has pretty weak hand techniques. Yes, there are exceptions, so please refrain from "Not at OUR school!" comments.
As for Shotokan doing lockingtecyhniques and grappling...granted, my exposure to Shotokan is limited to a dojo locally and what I have read on the net. The local dojo does NOT do any grappling, kobudo, knife defenses or joint locks. or rathera, they didn't until I was invited to their dojo and spent 3 hours teaching them some. Whether they are using what I taught them, I don't know. I rarely go into their dojo to observe any more, as the instructor that I had a good relationship with several years ago and the two instructors they have in there now have quite the "attitude" about other instructors observing. Funny, since they were both in the classes that I taught the locks and knife defense techniques to.
Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but I think you have a very limited experience with karate as a whole. Maybe you live in an area like I do, where there isn't a lot to chose from and observe, but trust me, there is a whole world of techniques involved in a good karate system and dojo other than slow punches and weak kicks. If possible, seek out and observe a good Okinawan karate dojo...specifically Shorin Ryu or Gojo Ryu for example. Possibly spar with one of the mid-level students or above and see if you can grab their hands in mid-air...you can't. Not if they are doing it correctly, which means it goes out fast, and snaps back faster. Hands and feet are not supposed to be hanging out there to grab.
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Post by AngelaG on Jan 19, 2006 14:58:27 GMT
My experiences with Shotokan gave me the impression that they are quite limited in their locking techniques, Shotokan has plenty of locking techniques - if you've come to the impression that it does not then the people you've been looking at have probably been missing a lot of the components of Shotokan out! It's a common misconception, but Shotokan DOES have a lot to it besides the ol' stereotypes of long stances, chambered fists and unworkable bunkai. There's grappling and groundfighting in there - you only have to go to a good Shotokan school to see it. *Nods* Very true. |
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Post by maskedman on Jan 20, 2006 2:36:42 GMT
Okay...I dont expect to catch a sloppy punch....I dont train to do that....I train to catch punches taht are thrown with speed precision and power..if I only trained to catch sloppy punches my training would be useless!
No system teaches sloppy punching Karate or otherwise.....we often get boxers in so that we can train catching there punches.....no karatekas yet but we will soon!
I could say the same for you and Hapkido...how much knowledge do you have on that?
I agree....and there is a world of fantastic joint locking and strike catching in Hapkido...other than only grabbing weak punches and kicks!
I have started studying Goju again...and this time the style has The Sensei Jules Hoenig seal of approval...because of the KAN it belongs to!
I already have during IRI KUMI training (daned black belts)...I also have pitted my skill against a TKD middle weight champion for the south pacific! Caught his kicks..I do get hit..but I catch them...I am not saying I am the greatest but I have done it in the past...because that is what I train for!
Agreed to leave them hanging is just inviting trouble...and not practical...that is why we train so hard to catch thes fast in and out strikes!
As for everyone else I am not saying anything about your styles just that they emphasise less on joint locking then Hapkio and aikido or Jujitsu...we train to catch strikes and lock them up...it is what the art is about we train that as much as a karateka trains kata,punches,kicks together...I am not saying you dont have it just that HKD emphasise more on it..that is why I feel confortable using it...it is not a matter of hitting and if the opportunity arises grab that arm...its a matter of making the arm the opportunity..it is just two different approaches!
*bows respectfully*
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Post by Andy on Jan 21, 2006 1:23:53 GMT
Wow T3h deadly huh? I'd be interested in an explanation of how this is done. I mean to say, the pro-boxing world would be interested for a start. If you can really do this, then you could sell your secrets for millions. Hope you'll send me some cash for simply pointing this out. Had an Aikido guy try and catch my punches once. Looked like someone trying to swat an invisible fly. This should be fascinating. |
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Post by Shorin Ryu Sensei on Jan 21, 2006 14:56:33 GMT
Wow T3h deadly huh? I'd be interested in an explanation of how this is done. I mean to say, the pro-boxing world would be interested for a start. If you can really do this, then you could sell your secrets for millions. Hope you'll send me some cash for simply pointing this out. Had an Aikido guy try and catch my punches once. Looked like someone trying to swat an invisible fly. This should be fascinating. This is exactly what I was thinking also. I mean, I've told people what punch (backfist for example) I was going to throw, and what my target was, and nobody's been able to catch it yet. Deflected it yes occassionally, but not catch it. |
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Post by maskedman on Jan 21, 2006 20:39:53 GMT
Wow T3h deadly huh? I'd be interested in an explanation of how this is done. I mean to say, the pro-boxing world would be interested for a start. If you can really do this, then you could sell your secrets for millions. Hope you'll send me some cash for simply pointing this out. Had an Aikido guy try and catch my punches once. Looked like someone trying to swat an invisible fly. This should be fascinating. Well obviously your punches must all be one punch one kill....maybe the aikidoka you tarined agaist wasnt that good...but the art does teach this..to time punches...you dont go and grab the first one thatis thrown..you dodge a couple and then you judge and grab...pretty simple...my explanation was basic..but there is alot more to it.....as I stated we do train with boxers to catch punches ..what can I say more then you open your hand and catch the wrist or elbow or bicep or hand there is an application for wherever you manage to get a hold of.....but you must be the super fast super deadly kind where all your punches connect and all your strikes as a matter of fact you must be the best in the known universe. |
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Post by maskedman on Jan 21, 2006 21:02:37 GMT
Wow T3h deadly huh? I'd be interested in an explanation of how this is done. I mean to say, the pro-boxing world would be interested for a start. If you can really do this, then you could sell your secrets for millions. Hope you'll send me some cash for simply pointing this out. Had an Aikido guy try and catch my punches once. Looked like someone trying to swat an invisible fly. This should be fascinating. This is exactly what I was thinking also. I mean, I've told people what punch (backfist for example) I was going to throw, and what my target was, and nobody's been able to catch it yet. Deflected it yes occassionally, but not catch it. Sensei, I do not know how to explain this to you...it just comes down to the amount of time you train for it....I understand what you are saying and that is why we train to catch strikes like the ones you would throw.....it doesnt work a 100% ofthe times...but it does work....like I am sure strikes dont work or connect a 100% of the time...but they do work! Like i said it is an art (HKD)..that is about joint locking with strikes thrown in almost as an after thought....it is based on YUDO www.usyudo.org/Sort of like Judo...and with all grappling arts learning to grab is fundamental..while HKD is not a grappling art in the traditional sense it does have elements of it! We train to catch strikes as much as you train to throw them..and like I said it comes down to how good the person is....I probabbly couldnt catch a kick or strike from someone as experienced as you or master jules...but that is why I am training to be able to get to that level..because to catch the strike of a master would mean that the training was worth it! In essence what I had said is how the fight according to HKD is supposed to go down...can I make it happen..maybe I dont know...but it has worked for me before! For people after they have thrown the first few strikes you can judge how well you are going to be able to deal with it and then instead of trying to grab a arm you then grab the person and snap then on the ground...do not thinkk BJJ style...but lockiing while you are still on your feet! I feel that my master www.slcgov.com/police/specialized/swat_blck_belt.htmWould be a better person to demonstrtae catching you punches and kicks as you are of the same level! I understand that you disagree..but that is alright it wouldnt be much of a forum if we all agreed....but I thank you for the polite menner in which you did so! *bows respectfully* |
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Post by Shorin Ryu Sensei on Jan 21, 2006 23:02:40 GMT
OK...no need to get snide here. No, my punches and kicks don't get through to their intended target every time. Nobody's do. Nor do I expect your grabbing them would work every time either. We train to also grab, lock etc punches also a great deal, so I'm not unfamiliar with what you're talking about, but to say that you can grab something as fast as a backfist, which I feel is the fastest punching technique, is incorrect. Yes, slapping it away is certainly possible 75%+/- (guessing at that percentage from my experience) of the time, but grabbing it in mid-air is something else. And no, we don't work off the "one punch, one kill" philosophy, as that's a philosophy that will get you killed.
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Post by Andy on Jan 21, 2006 23:39:58 GMT
Well obviously your punches must all be one punch one kill.... Must they really? Ah, I see. My bad then. |
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Post by AngelaG on Jan 21, 2006 23:49:00 GMT
So if strikers are training hard to get out fast and powerful punches, and lockers are training hard to grab and manipulate those punches... who will win?
It's a conundrum indeed. ;D
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Post by Andy on Jan 22, 2006 0:32:05 GMT
So if strikers are training hard to get out fast and powerful punches, and lockers are training hard to grab and manipulate those punches... who will win? It's a conundrum indeed. ;D Well obviously if you practice hard enough at catching bullets with your teeth, you'll eventually succeed. ;D |
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Post by maskedman on Jan 22, 2006 5:16:35 GMT
I am not snide sensei....I have great respect for you and I believe that anyone who has put in as much time as you would be a hard man to stop once you got going...please take it as a compliment which was the way that it was meant to be!
I never said that..I said that the principle was you strike I catch and break...it doesnt happen all the time...but it is what I train for! I was just breaking it down..anyone who says everytime they are sucessful is a fool...and I never said everytime I would catch it...just that I train to catch strikes!
True...there are not many people that can catch a strike in mid air...and to try it would be folly...catches are caught as they leave or after they have fully extended before the pull back...because that pulling motin is what we need to set a angle of reistance! You need to catch the strike at the point where it hasnt generated the power...or has spent the power.....if not you are only going to hurt you hand or your head if you miss! It sort of makes you realise the importance of dodging...I think it is called Tai sabaki in Karate...or something similar to it!
I was being sarcastic..and not towards you sensei!
*bows respectfully*
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Post by maskedman on Jan 22, 2006 5:18:46 GMT
So if strikers are training hard to get out fast and powerful punches, and lockers are training hard to grab and manipulate those punches... who will win? It's a conundrum indeed. ;D Well who ever was on form on the day...or whoever trained harder! *bows respectfully* |
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