Locks, bars, joint manipulation

[Aefibird]

PLEASE can we ALL keep this thread ON TOPIC and RESPECTFUL - admin has enough to do without people reporting other users!

There may be things that you do not agree with that other users post, just as other forum users may not agree with your posts. Please try to remember to keep the thread on the topic and to not just resort to personal comments and sniping.

Ta.

[whitewarlock]

Well, looks like this discussion has strayed a little.

I believe i grasp what maskedman is attempting to argue. His ability to project 'ideas' is not as sharp as others, which is i believe one of the reasons he opens himself up for so much flak. As to the hostilities between Andy and Maskedman, i think both of you need to step back and reexamine the lack of respect you mutually project towards each other. Seriously, whatever issues you two have with each other, it seems to stem mostly from a fundamental lack of mutual respect that is fostered by occasional needling. Just step back, shake hands, and start this whole relationship over again.

Returning to what maskedman was attempting to state, i've examined hapkido and it follows aiki-jujutsu principles when it comes to capturing of limbs. SRS, you'll note the similiarities when performing a kake uke (open hand middle block, as described by Jules) to that of the grabs presented in aiki-jujutsu, hapkido, and aikido.

So, essentially, yes... if you strike with immediate retraction, such 'parry-then-grab' actions are not going to find many opportunities. On the other hand, if you perform follow-through strikes (or pathing strikes, such as a backfist or roundhouse), 'parry-then-grab' actions will have ample opportunity.

Btw, these three arts are not limited to this dependency on 'reaction' for obtainment of a joint grab/lock. In fact, both aiki-jujutsu and aikido emphasize action, as opposed to reaction. I.e., a highly skilled practitioner develops the ability to 'create' the opportunity, as opposed to waiting for the opportunity to present itself. Interestingly enough, the tactics associated with this are very similar to that of how a short-reaching boxer chases a long-reaching boxer's lead-punch to close-the-gap. However, the similarities end there, with the boxer focusing on infighting and an aiki-practitioner focusing on whirls/whorls.

[maskedman]

Zigactly WW.....great post as usual!

*bows respectfully*

[AngelaG]

Due to the childish manner in which this thread has degenerated I am going to lock it

I think some people need to take a good look at themselves and how they think it is correct to act in a public forum.

Furthermore attacks on me and they way I choose to run MY forum are not welcome. I make no money on this venture, and as a matter of fact I have only ever spent money to keep Karate Resource running. If you don't like the way the forum is run by me and my very good moderators (who again are only doing it as a favour) then please feel free to find somewhere else that has a tolerance for childish personal attacks, thread drift, constant bickering and other such aspects.

This is a forum for martial artists to get together and chat about their arts. I think some people need to take a step back and decide whether they are acting in a manner befitting adults, let alone dedicated martial artists.

I have REPEATEDLY asked that all personal issues be taken to PM, and yet there is a consistent ignoring of the admin and mods in order to continue personal vendettas and childish drum banging.

General posters on here have no idea about what issues are discussed in the staff forum, what is discussed in the password protected area and what is sent by PM. However you have my word that all matters are dealt with in an appropriate manner and any serious measures are discussed between the mods of this forum and the valued members of this forum that have kept the martial arts discussion flowing from the beginning, even when the forum has been through some testing times. Personally I think we do a great job - and if anyone disagrees, that's fine, but the choice is to go with the flow or else leave the forum for pastures new.

I would prefer not to have to ban any more members, there has been too much of that in recent times, and I am sure that everyone has something to add, however consistent rule breaking cannot be ignored forever.

Please re-aquaint youselves with the forum rules if necessary and perhaps count to 10 before posting. Can your comments be seen as inflammatory? If yes, it's probably best if you don't post them.

I thank you in advance for your support of the forum and for keeping the ethos of the forum running.

Karate Resource Admin.

[AngelaG]

The thread has been edited, and I'm going to unlock it as it had some really good input. Please keep all future debate respectful, as befitting martial artists.

[Andy]

whitewarlock said:

I believe i grasp what maskedman is attempting to argue. His ability to project 'ideas' is not as sharp as others, which is i believe one of the reasons he opens himself up for so much flak. As to the hostilities between Andy and Maskedman, i think both of you need to step back and reexamine the lack of respect you mutually project towards each other.

I use the internet as a resource.
To find and share information.
I find it tasking when I find myself distracted by those who care nothing for those desires, or even go out of their way to detract from that.
Aefibird mentioned abuse of the 'Karma' system on here on another thread, and here I am, the only other person online being 'Masked Man', and my rep has gone down again.
I don't care two figs about that personally, but it obviously means something to some people.

Seriously, whatever issues you two have with each other, it seems to stem mostly from a fundamental lack of mutual respect that is fostered by occasional needling. Just step back, shake hands, and start this whole relationship over again.

I'll take masked man seriously when he/she takes MA and MArtists seriously, and by that I mean considered posts, with an open mind to other ideas.
I can be the most helpful guy in the world, or your worst nightmare.
It's your call.
Being straight up and honest about it, I don't believe maskedman is who he say's he is.
He's trolling and playing games with people.
He doesn't care about karateresource or any other forum, but delights in disruption and chaos.
Prove me wrong maskedman, whoever you are.

Attempting to return to the original topic;

What would you say are the main principles to ensure an effective lock, bar etc? Would you ever attempt a joint lock in a real fight?

Yes you would attempt to employ a lock in a real altercation, provided it was appropriate to do so, and the opportunity arose.
The principles involved, would be a good knowledge of locks and a proactive attitude to resolving a situation by their use.

[Aefibird]

Moving away from whether or not you'd use a lock in a "real" fight; how would you use that lock in a fight? Joint locks and the like are designed to break bones and cause maximum disruption to an opponents limbs.

However, some areas of MA teach locks as a pure restraining technique - a painful way of getting compliance. I'm thinking here also of certain jobs that use locks in this way, such as psychiatric nurses/healthcare professionals, police officers, even some security staff choose to use them in this way, rather than just yank the lock on and break a persons wrist.

Obviously it is very difficult to answer this question for every situation you'd find yourself in, as every single moment we live is different to the next. However, do you forsee/think that you'd use a joint lock as a bone breaking device, or 'merely' as a restraining and compliance tool? Do you train in locks to use them for restrain or to "go all the way" with the technique and cause serious damage with the technique?

When I used to train in Aikido the Sensei used to teach locks and the like as techniques to be used for restraining purposes only - once you 'gave' the other person their limb back then they'd feel pain but no lasting damage. However, in karate whenever we do locks Sensei usually says that the lock would be continued past the point of no return - it would cause irreversable damage, such as bone breaking.

I can see the point of both sides and for occupations that use joint locks it is better to use them as restraining tools rather than as a limb-snapper. What's your view on how locks 'should' be used? Which do you think is the better way of training or is it just personal preference?

[maskedman]

Well Mr andy..I punched you to lower your rep because of your unfounded claims that I was a troll..and then your nasty attitude, just being a smarta$$! They were legitimate punches...just like the one I am going to give you for the above post....I always stopped at around 26.....You started it by calling me a troll...In my job I got to post things in caps lock to the MYOB programme (accounting software)...sometimes I forget to take the lock off and type...and if for that reasion alone you call me a troll then...well your a silly bugger!

I came to this forum through Angela...I am known by aefi, SRS, Whit Warlock etc..I was a member of www.all-karate.com under the name H2WHOA....untill my account got hijacked by Jones...aka BAM! I also go under the name SAVAGE

www.phpbbplanet.com/forum/index.php?mforum=legacyartsonlin

and

www.martialtalk.com

You will see that I have a reasonablly good reputation at these places...all you need to do is check it out..ask aefi and SRS....I am sure they will vouch for me!

This is my personal space places

spaces.msn.com/tabusorofijisavage1978/

and

360.yahoo.com/scribble_fiji

You also send me nasty PMs...and you say that I have a problem with MA...i have been at it for 18 years...not as long as others...but long enough!

you are right I care nothing for your desires or your wants...and if you choose to be distracted that is hardly my problem....being straight up and honest...you have slurred my name..and my honour....and yet I still here no apologise!

Now back to topic

I CAN catch strikes...it is what we train to do....if you want futher explanations as to that claim refer to my previous posts in this thread....when that happens, I have used the locks as a tool to de-escalate violence...I rarely use it as a snapping tool...although you have the joint in a pretty good position should you need to go snap happy!

Hapkido however teaches to go past the point of no return....I think that all locks are meant to be breaks...but it is largely a individual interpretation of what it is in essence!

[nkudahc]

aefibird said:

I can see the point of both sides and for occupations that use joint locks it is better to use them as restraining tools rather than as a limb-snapper. What's your view on how locks 'should' be used? Which do you think is the better way of training or is it just personal preference?

i'd like to think that no one here is going to snap limbs when just a simple lock is called for, but i'm not sure how you would train for one as opposed to the other, i mean certainly not too many people would show up for class if they were getting their wrist snapped every day. or maybe i misunderstood your post, for which i apologize for.

[Aefibird]

Obviously, in class you wouldn't train to actually snap your partner's wrist (at least, not every night;) ), however, the emphasis of what the lock is for is different when training.

Most Aikidoka train for restraint and would only use a lock for that but many Karateka train to disable and damage and would naturally push the lock further causing irrepairable damage.

[nkudahc]

aefibird said:

Karateka train to disable and damage and would naturally push the lock further causing irrepairable damage.

but certainly only when the situation warranted such a response right? i mean when facing two or 3 people would an aikidoka try to restrain all 3 or would they try to take each opponent out of the fight with each technique they use?

[Aefibird]

Well, I was primarily talking about single person attacks, but yeah, for many in Aikido the emphasis is still on restraint.

The principles behind Aikido (and I'm talking traditional O'Sensei-style Aikido here) is that it causes no more damage than necessary - I remember going to a seminar with a Japanese Aikikai Aikidoka who laboured this point over and over again.

The idea is that your opponent suffers no lasting/permanent damage and that restraint and using their force against them is the order of the day. That's one of the reasons why Aikido is a purely defensive art.

The thing with "traditional" Aikido (Aikikai) is that it doesn't actually deal really really well against multiple attackers. In free randori (called because RANDOri is RANDOm people jumping out on you ) you may just do one quick defence on a person before you have to deal with the next and the next and the next. It's not really a case of "I've done Nikkyo on him and broken his wrist", "I've done Irimi Nage on him and dislocated his elbow", "I've done Yonkyo on her and dislocated her shoulder".

It's one of the reasons why some Aikido and Aiki-Jutus groups are breaking away from O'Sensei's concepts of Aikido, as it isn't seen as "effective" but is just seen as "art".

Dammit, I wish I still did Aikido and then I could get a feel even more for what I'm trying to say.

I've lost the point of my whole set of posts now.

[nkudahc]

i don't know much about aikido at all, actually the only thing i know about it is from reading a couple books, "angry white pajamas" which is a really fun book to read if you haven't already and a book by Gozo Shioda who was one of O'Sensei's better students from what i understand and it seems to me that from what i remember reading Ueshiba's aikido was pretty brutal, i think that i even remember reading that aikido was 90% atemi which i thought was pretty interesting. by yea, i was just thinking and maybe you're the person to ask aefibird, one of the first thing aikidoka learn is ukemi so that they can practice their techniques on eachother without injury right? what would happen if you applied these techniques to someone that didn't know how to breakfall using combat speed and power in a selfdefence situation?

[maskedman]

nkudahc said:

i was just thinking and maybe you're the person to ask aefibird, one of the first thing aikidoka learn is ukemi so that they can practice their techniques on eachother without injury right? what would happen if you applied these techniques to someone that didn't know how to breakfall using combat speed and power in a selfdefence situation?

Well in the case of Judo and Hapkido...if you dont know how to break fall...you land on your head! Picture doing a simple Judo O-SOTO GARI......or a SEOI-NAGE...on a untrained opponent on the sidewalk.....nuff said!

*bows respectfully*

[pasmith]

One problem with some of the Aikido stuff is that the breakfalling can change what would actually happen if a techniques was applied for real.
The outer wrist twist lock thing for example (where the hand is grabbed and twisted outwards...anti-clockwise for the right hand).
In Aikido this is always accompanied by a high flipping breakfall so that the person executing the lock can apply it fully. The flip out stops the wrist from being damaged. That's all well and good.
The problem comes when you do that lock for real and rather than flipping over your attacker goes "Ow my wrist!" and then just falls over on their side. This is what people that can't breakfall do naturally.
Any follow up that you learnt to apply here will be thrown out of the window as your opponent has not landed in the position you're used to (due to not flipping out).