Tournament

[Andy]

pasmith said:

Martial arts are about winning fights so that is the only true test there can be. End of really.

I can appreciate that that's what they are for you, and why.
Can you accept that people can enrich themselves thru MA in many ways, with a different mindset?

Andy, have you been taking your grumpy pills again?

Ran out, but when I tried my 'idiocy intolerance' tablets, it took a while before they kicked in. ;D

[random]

Lets look at it from a different point of view, either haven’t been in a death match…or you have and are dead hard because you survived, or you are dead, or you think enter the dragon is real

[pasmith]

"I can appreciate that that's what they are for you, and why."

You see I don't see that as being what martial arts are to ME but merely what martial arts ARE in essence. We may have evolved them into other things but the root is combat effectiveness. I don't dismiss these other benefits. I'm sure I have had these other benefits myself (more confidence, fitness, balance, a certain innner peace and all that).
What I don't do though is put these benefits as a higher goal than combat effectiveness. Combat effectiveness is goal number one. Any other benefits are an added bonus.

"Can you accept that people can enrich themselves thru MA in many ways, with a different mindset?"

Of course. I do however feel that they can still enrich themselves in the same way and also keep combat effectiveness as the primary goal. If anything combat effectiveness forms the foundation for those other benefits. "Look I have found inner peace through martial arts...can't fight for toffee but that is not my primary aim"....that sounds rather hollow to me.

Masked man's answer may have been flippant and tongue in cheek but it was still the only answer that actually got to the root of what martial arts are for.

[AngelaG]

pasmith said:

Masked man's answer may have been flippant and tongue in cheek but it was still the only answer that actually got to the root of what martial arts are for.

Or WERE for. I think people are overlooking the impact of modern society on martial arts; from what is acceptable and legal and also the different situations we find ourselves in these days as compared to, for example, feudal Okinawa.

[AngelaG]

andy said:

Andy, have you been taking your grumpy pills again?

Ran out, but when I tried my 'idiocy intolerance' tablets, it took a while before they kicked in. ;D

That's as maybe, but name calling is not allowed on the forum, and doesn't benefit the spirit of open chat. Personal feelings aside I don't want threads to degenerate into petty bickering and name-calling.... we have the PM system for that

[pasmith]

No sorry. That's what martial arts can still be for. Modern advances don't need to change that IMHO.
Legal and acceptable ramifications aside combat effectiveness is (or should be) the primary aim. If it's not we are doing something other than MA. Like dancing or Aerobics with a MA bent.
Of course MA (and MA practice) should be tailored to fit the times we live in, the area we live in and our own specific needs but that in no way changes the primary aim.
The feudal okinawan trained to punch through armour and poke out eyes. We train to knock people out, diffuse situations, pre-emptively strike and escape. Different approachs I agree but both have the same primary aim. Namely being effective at succeding in violent confrontations in the environment you live in.

[maskedman]

angelag said:

andy said:

Ran out, but when I tried my 'idiocy intolerance' tablets, it took a while before they kicked in. ;D

That's as maybe, but name calling is not allowed on the forum, and doesn't benefit the spirit of open chat. Personal feelings aside I don't want threads to degenerate into petty bickering and name-calling.... we have the PM system for that

Thank you angela!

*bows respectfully*

[nkudahc]

pasmith said:

Different approachs I agree but both have the same primary aim. Namely being effective at succeding in violent confrontations in the environment you live in.

i disagree.....i have always been taught that there is a huge difference between a do art and a jutsu art. i believe that a jutsu art is about fighting and killing, but the goal of a do art i've been taught is about seeking enlightment, whatever that is, through martial arts training...or basically just becoming a better person. just my .02$

[pasmith]

Yes agreed. Arts can have different goals or flavours that's fine.
Angela's point was that combat effectiveness as a goal of the martial arts was more applicable in the old days and that modern times have effected the arts away from that. I agree that that has happened but don't see that as inevitable or a good thing. What we term combat effective today may not be the same as what we thought combat effective 100 years ago. The fact remains that what defines both things is combat effectiveness.

I don't see what is wrong with having an art that is, at it's heart, combat effective but also encourages personal growth in many areas (spiritual, emotional, physical etc). The two sides are not mutually exclusive.
Indeed I would say that the two sides MUST go together to give meaning to each one (at least in the realm of martial arts).

If your goal is personal/sprititual growth then surely it doesn't matter what art or method you train in does it? As long as it gets you where you want to go? So surely you'd be better served learning a relevent and combat effective art so that a residual benefit of training would be some S/D skills?

[nkudahc]

pasmith said:

So surely you'd be better served learning a relevent and combat effective art so that a residual benefit of training would be some S/D skills?

i agree with this totally, it is a wonderful residual benefit...but to some maybe not the main goal, so then prehaps it doesn't have to be tested in a life or death battle

[AngelaG]

pasmith said:

Yes agreed. Arts can have different goals or flavours that's fine.
Angela's point was that combat effectiveness as a goal of the martial arts was more applicable in the old days and that modern times have effected the arts away from that. I agree that that has happened but don't see that as inevitable or a good thing. What we term combat effective today may not be the same as what we thought combat effective 100 years ago. The fact remains that what defines both things is combat effectiveness.

I think you missed my point, which was not about the combat effectiveness of a martial art, but rather that training something purely for lethal purposes is a somewhat outmoded concept. I certainly never had the aim of being a killing machine in my mind when I joined my karate club, and whilst learning self-defence is always a positive aspect I certainly hope to never have to use it, or prove it in a real situation. I would hope never to be confronted with the choice of kill or be killed, and certainly not to feed my ego, or to somehow try and prove some sort of lethal standard in my art. (The whole idea of that being so inherently flawed anyway - does winning a tournament prove the worth of an art, or the skill of a fighter, or even the luck of the draw on the day?)

People start martial arts for various reasons, with self-defence being a bonus, rather than a drive. Perhaps following previous logic we would have to have various tournaments based on those goals. A tournament that tests stamina, a tournament measuring weightloss....

Or not...

[maskedman]

Sorry...but Itrain to be lethal....I train for the aspects that will see me standing and my enemy laying at my feet.....like you said people train for d\ifferent reasons...but those that only deal with the way...or only with the lethal side...are unbalanced.....SD is not a plus...it is the whole reason of MA...it is the reason it was created all of that fitness stuff....go to tae bo...enlighten ment...go find a Guru...Lethality is what it is about...violence and how to control it....and how not to lose control....knowing how not to hit...good...but does your opponent know this!

*bows respectfully*

[AngelaG]

Self-defence does not necessarily mean lethality.

[Andy]

angelag said:

andy said:

Ran out, but when I tried my 'idiocy intolerance' tablets, it took a while before they kicked in. ;D

That's as maybe, but name calling is not allowed on the forum, and doesn't benefit the spirit of open chat. Personal feelings aside I don't want threads to degenerate into petty bickering and name-calling.... we have the PM system for that

Cool, just as well I didn't call anyone names then isn't it. ;D

You see I don't see that as being what martial arts are to ME but merely what martial arts ARE in essence.

Perhaps a whole other thread or conversation, but if Martial Arts were a loaf of bread, and you had the choice of giving it to a man whose family was starving, or someone trying to stop a crack in the Hoover Dam, then who would appreciate it more?
You've explained what MA are to you, but like I was saying, everyone needs to allow a little leeway for what others see in them.

Combat effectiveness is goal number one. Any other benefits are an added bonus.

See I beleive you.
That's true for you, and you have my blessing for what it's worth, but it's not everyone's goal, it's certainly not mine, and that contradicts your previous statement.

Masked man's answer may have been flippant and tongue in cheek but it was still the only answer that actually got to the root of what martial arts are for.

For you perhaps, but not for me.
Maybe I'm just a little odd though eh?

[Andy]

maskedman said:

Sorry...but Itrain to be lethal....I train for the aspects that will see me standing and my enemy laying at my feet.....like you said people train for d\ifferent reasons...but those that only deal with the way...or only with the lethal side...are unbalanced.....SD is not a plus...it is the whole reason of MA...it is the reason it was created all of that fitness stuff....go to tae bo...enlighten ment...go find a Guru...Lethality is what it is about...violence and how to control it....and how not to lose control....knowing how not to hit...good...but does your opponent know this!

*bows respectfully*

If you want to fight, then go and fight.
Not sport, not tournaments.
Go into the roughest bar you can think of and pick a fight with the roughest looking bunch of guys in there.
Anything else, is pure conjecture.