Grades

[Aefibird]

What do you think of the value of a grade? Should the grades a person takes be with them indefinately or would you say it should have a sort of "cut off" period and that people should re-test after X number of years?

What about those people who have not trained for many years and then returned to martial arts? We've a few people at my club who have not trained for a long while (many years in the case of 2 of them); should they be able to return at their previous grade or would you say that anyone who leaves MA leaves their grades too?

Certain things in "real life" require certification. If you know first aid you have to be re-examined every so often to be able to be declared competent. However, driving does not. A person could pass their test at 17 and never drive again - but they would be classed as being able to drive.

I know that often grades do not mean an awful lot oustide your own dojo or group, but do you think that being able to 'hang onto' grades is a good thing and should be encouraged, or would it make for better standards in martial arts and better MAists if people were encouraged/expected to re-grade/re-test every so often?

[AngelaG]

All a grade ever is, is an indication that at a specific time you had the ability to fufill a pre-determined assessment. In that way it does not differ from an academic qualification. For example I hold a B.Sc degree in Multimedia, Production and Technology. From that I have utilised and developed certain aspects and discarded others, but I will hold that degree until I die. Personally I think the grade should hold, as people can then assess the personal karateka as to how much of an indication of their current abilites the grade is.

[pasmith]

'tis a tricky one indeed.

I got a blue belt in BJJ (an art where only your performance determines your grade) but haven't gone in over a year.
I'm going to go back but there is no way I grapple at blue belt level anymore.
A flip side of this is that I wouldn't want to miss-represent my instructor should I go back, wear my blue belt, and then roll (badly) with someone new to the club. They would leave that session believing that blue belts at the club are rubbish (rather than just me being rubbish).
Grades do represent something to other people.
How would you feel seeing a black belt at a club that was rubbish? It brings the whole club down despite any mitigating factors or reasons.

[random]

Being one of those who returned to formal training after a gap of some 5 – 6 years I was surprised how quickly I was told to where the belt of the grade I had achieved last, namely 1st Kyu.

I struggle with some of the kata that the lower grades just get on with, and I can remember very little of the advanced Kata which I had previously leant.

I have been to a Brown and Black belt training course and was singled out, with another member of the club, in positive way, (that is if you can count being the patsy for demonstration positive), this helped me iron out a bad habit I had developed training on my own. Now I can either write a book, how to blag your way through karate, or intrinsically karate is like riding a bike, and fitness flexibility may not be there but that ‘x factor’ still is, and it is this that people see, or, everyone else there was as crap as I was. Which I doubt.

Personally I would have been happy to start again and grade along with the others from beginner upwards, and wore a white belt when I first started training again, the difficulty with this is my punches and blocks were/are still up to the measure, which would have given me an advantage over the others.

I guess it is down to the club instructor and the student to come to some agreement and be happy to respect and go along with the decision made, I know I would not have been particularly bothered if I had to start again at yellow belt.

[AngelaG]

I think worrying about what other people think about your dojo is a waste of time. If people are so narrow-minded that they judge a dojo on one character then that is up to them, but as they don't know the personal circumstances they are likely deluding themselves that they have any real knowledge of the situation. What is the person is disabled, and through hard perseverance has shown the spirit to achieve the belt, what if they are injured, or have been ill? After coming out of hospital in the summer I was listless and very tired - should I have had my grade revoked until was at a pre-illness standard, in order to preserve the reputation of my club?

What about people in the same style that come to your club? Do they keep their belt or start again?

[andym]

In our assoc. you are entitled to wear the belt you last graded at, irrespective of any time out you may have had. After 6 months you are required to grade to that belt standard or risk losing it and starting again.

[pasmith]

"I think worrying about what other people think about your dojo is a waste of time."

Personally speaking I agree...BUT...the BJJ world is small in the UK. People know who's who. The quality of particular grades can be very contentious. Competitions are done by grade so what grade a person is takes on more importance than just wearing a belt in a club. I wouldn't want to be the reason for my instructor being seen as someone that doesn't churn out quality blue belts.

"What is the person is disabled, and through hard perseverance has shown the spirit to achieve the belt, what if they are injured, or have been ill?"

In BJJ "spirit" doesn't get you a grade...only ability. The returning from injury or illness point is fair enough...but surely somehing like that would probably be discussed or mentioned when sparring? Most people would appreciate not rolling your best under such circumstances.

"After coming out of hospital in the summer I was listless and very tired - should I have had my grade revoked until was at a pre-illness standard, in order to preserve the reputation of my club?"

Of course not. That was a momentary loss of ability due to temporary circumstances. What we are talking about is a long lay off (years even) with a resulting loss of ability that means you no longer represent what the grade you left at should be. Slightly different.

"What about people in the same style that come to your club? Do they keep their belt or start again?"

Depends I suppose. Mostly they wear whatever belt they want. If they turn up in a blue one they wear a blue one and get treated as a blue. I can imagine however that when a suitable grading opportunity happens (we only grade under visiting Black belts from the states) they would be given their appropriate grade, even if it is lower than the one they professed to be at the start.

[Aefibird]

angelag said:

What about people in the same style that come to your club? Do they keep their belt or start again?

Everyone at my karate club who has graded in 'traditional' karate (not a kickboxing or a freestyle karate type art)has been able to keep and wear their current or last rank. Even if they're sort-of not "up to standard" then they've been able to wear it - just not progress to the next rank until they've got back up to speed with what they should be doing at that particular belt colour.

It's only if a person has not trained in karate (eg if they'd done Judo or TKD or Kung Fu or whatever) before that they start back as a beginner or as a lower kyu grade.

[AngelaG]

pasmith said:

In BJJ "spirit" doesn't get you a grade...only ability. The returning from injury or illness point is fair enough...but surely somehing like that would probably be discussed or mentioned when sparring? Most people would appreciate not rolling your best under such circumstances.

Out of interest when you roll in competition BJJ are you separated by sex or weight, or just grades?

I guess there are two ways to grade in karate - one is to have a set syllabus and you have to achieve that to get your next belt. The other is to study the individual and see how they personally have developed over time. I'm not saying either method is right or wrong, but I personally prefer the latter and feel that it is more in line with the ethos of karate.

pasmith said:

Of course not. That was a momentary loss of ability due to temporary circumstances. What we are talking about is a long lay off (years even) with a resulting loss of ability that means you no longer represent what the grade you left at should be. Slightly different.

That was kind of the point I was making. Where does one draw the line? How about if I was in a car crash with years of therapy ahead? Should my belt be revoked after 6 months or 6 years? That's the problem, each case would have to be judged on it's own methods, and then it would be debatable wither it would be judged with a subjective or objective opinion.

[pasmith]

BJJ competitions are divided by weight, grade and sex.
Although most comps have an "absolute" division for each grade where all weights can compete together (if you wanna risk grappling with an 18 stone monster). That usually happens at the end of the standard weight groups.
Also some women have competed against guys in this country (and done well) due to the low number of women that compete.

To me a grade is a set thing. You set the level and then people must reach it. When you let them have it for time served, spirit, committment etc is when they grade loses its meaning.
If you know the material for a grade and can perform at a suitable level for that grade then you are that grade. If you can't then you aren't.
That still allows for personal growth and I don't see the two being mutually exclusive.
If you are going to use gradings and grades then they have to be robustly enforced to mean anything.
The alternative is to go the MMA route and not grade at all. That way personal growth is the only way to judge progress. Not a bad way to do stuff IMHO.
I say either grade with integrity where each person of that grade represents it or don't grade at all.

Not wishing to blow my own trumpet but I spar at a higher level than my current Karate grade (most of the time ). Not because I'm good at "Karate" but because I've been around a bit.
Now if someone that previously graded but now doesn't operate at that level can keep their grade should I be allowed to have a brown belt or summat even though I don't know the kata required?
We both lack the ability to represent that grade fully. Some may even argue that someone that can fight but not do kata represents the grade better than someone that might remember the kata but has lost the timing and "feel" for sparring.

As you say each case on its own merits I suppose.

Grading can become a dodgy old affair if taken to seriously or not taken seriously enough in my view.

[AngelaG]

BJJ competitions are divided by weight, grade and sex.

And therefore it has already been predetermined that certain people will have different levels of ability, despite wearing the same belt. I am not denigrating anyone’s grade but I think it is unrealistic to expect a 5’0’’ woman to roll with, and beat a 6’0’’ male. Perhaps there are females out there that could do it, but it would not be the norm, which is why the various categories have been set up, in order to level the playing field. Females are physically built differently than males, and your average woman is less likely to be as strong as your average man. To take it a step further, why should someone with physical difficulties be expected to perform the same as someone who is lucky enough to be naturally healthy and fit? This is more what I mean by spirit, someone who finds it physically difficult attaining levels they never previously believed they could, through hard work and their own individual skill. If someone who is built like Charles Atlas only has to try 20% to get a 100% improvement, should they then be considered better than someone who has put in 100% effort to get a 20% improvement?

Although most comps have an "absolute" division for each grade where all weights can compete together (if you wanna risk grappling with an 18 stone monster).

However, 99.9% of the time the 18 stone monster is going to win. The Davids that beat the Goliaths are usually the exception rather than the rule.

Also some women have competed against guys in this country (and done well) due to the low number of women that compete.

Good for them, however I suspect that this is probably against men of similar frames. I’d also be interested in the numbers of those that won, rather than “put up a good fight”.

To me a grade is a set thing. You set the level and then people must reach it. When you let them have it for time served, spirit, committment etc is when they grade loses its meaning.

For time served I agree more. Simply attending is not enough to go up a grade. However spirit and commitment cannot be ignored. For example if someone was just attending classes every now and then, and really not putting in much effort whilst they were there, but on a grading can pull a good performance out of a hat, to me that is going against the whole spirit of martial arts. Further more individual development should not be ignored (just my own opinion). Martial Arts to me is about indomitable spirit and not giving up even when the odds are stacked against you, people who train through pain, disability and difficulty exemplify that for me.

If you are going to use gradings and grades then they have to be robustly enforced to mean anything.

True but they can be rigidly enforced within a club’s own ethos. If one of their enforced rules is spirit and commitment then the examinee has to display those qualities.

Now if someone that previously graded but now doesn't operate at that level can keep their grade should I be allowed to have a brown belt or summat even though I don't know the kata required?

No because as I pointed out the person with the higher belt showed they could fulfil a pre-determined criteria on a particular day (or period). How they develop (or not) after that is irrelevant on the day they graded.

We both lack the ability to represent that grade fully. Some may even argue that someone that can fight but not do kata represents the grade better than someone that might remember the kata but has lost the timing and "feel" for sparring.

That depends on how important you rate sparring. Personally I don’t rate it highly, nor do I see it as a good indicator of how someone can fight. Sparring and fighting are two different worlds.

Grading can become a dodgy old affair if taken to seriously or not taken seriously enough in my view.

I agree

[Shorin Ryu Sensei]

I think grading (we call it rank) is a good thing myself for several reasons.

1. It gives people something tangible to work towards. Whether it is a belt color change, a stripe, or a certificate to hang on the wall.

2. Men naturally like to feel superior, or better, than others. It's that domination thing that men have ingrained in the back of our minds. Why do we strive for promotions at work? To be the CEO or manager of a department? Foreman on a job, police officer, teacher, etc. It's that inner part of the male psyche that drives us to have power over others.

3. Grades/rank shows us what we have accomplised and where we're at in relationship to others. It is a source of pride and accomplishment. It's a "status thinb".

As for whther or not once grade is given, should they keep it always, I say not only yes, but HELL YES! You earned it, why should it not stay with you always? Sure, if you leave the arts for an extended period your skills diminish and knowledge is forgotten, so should you be reduced to a lower rank because of that? From my own personal experience of teaching since 1978, I've had students that attained up to brown belt and had to leave for one reason or another, and have come back after as long as 8-10 years. They come back in at the same rank, line up accordingly in class, but have to reach that same level of performance and knowledge again for that rank before they are considered for advancement. One thing I've noticed with these people is that the skills come back quickly to them. Muscle memory is still there, it just needs to be reawakened. It's like riding a bike. Maybe you haven't done it for 20 years, but the skill of doing so comes back quickly when needed.

[pasmith]

Good debate this..

BJJ comps are divided by weight, grade etc. They have to be to let everyone have a go.
BJJ grades on the other hand are not. A blue belt is a blue. As long as they display "blue belt level" rolling they will get it. It's got nothing to do with size or sex.
To get my blue I rolled with a brown belt that was slightly smaller than me (I'm 5 foot 10) AND Matt Thornton (who is 6 foot 7). Sure it's different rolling with each but a good examiner can adjust for that and look at your performance in relation to other blue belts. If you can't hang on the mat with people of a similar weight and grade then you won't get that grade.

"why should someone with physical difficulties be expected to perform the same as someone who is lucky enough to be naturally healthy and fit?"

Jean Jacque Machado (one of the best grapplers in the world) has no fingers on his left hand. He ain't complaining about having to roll with people that have a full complement of digits. Obviously exceptions can be made. Overall if you fall into the realms of being a "normal" human you should have to perform like one. Bringing up disabled people in this case is trying to argue a general point (people should represent their grade) with an exception.

"Good for them, however I suspect that this is probably against men of similar frames. I’d also be interested in the numbers of those that won, rather than “put up a good fight”."

Of course it's against similar framed men. In the same way that most men fight against similar framed men. Racheal Wheatley from Gracie Barra Brum has done very well against "men of similar frames"...winning not just surviving. Against similar women she'd probably do even better.

"Martial Arts to me is about indomitable spirit and not giving up even when the odds are stacked against you, people who train through pain, disability and difficulty exemplify that for me."

Totally agree. But I still wouldn't give them a grade if they were crap.

"That depends on how important you rate sparring. Personally I don’t rate it highly, nor do I see it as a good indicator of how someone can fight. Sparring and fighting are two different worlds."

Well I totally disagree with that. How on earth do you rate somone's fighting ability without sparring? This is were Karate loses me somewhat. Kihon and kata don't mean squat unless you can perform techniques on a resisiting opponent. Sparring is the best indicator we have of how someone will react when fighting a real person (short of actually having a real fight).

What do you see as a good indicator of how someone can fight if it is not sparring?

[AngelaG]

Test to see that people can deal with the more common acts of violence? It's more "honest" than competition sparring IMO, especially since the majority of karate clubs do light/no contact sparring.

[andym]

Is there such a thing as 'no contact' sparring?